Neurodivergent women and mental health: Why belief and support are essential requirements for impactful care with Kendra Koch, Founder and CEO of Divergently

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_01] Welcome to Expanding Access, a podcast by Behavioral Health Tech, where we explore the cutting edge of mental health, substance use and autism and IDD care. Each episode features insightful conversations with industry leaders who are driving real change through technology and innovation. Whether you're a provider, payer, or just passionate about expanding access to behavioral health care, you won't want to miss these stories. Let's dive in.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_01] Hello, everyone. I'm Solomay Tibabu, the host of the Expanding Access podcast, where we have amazing guests covering all things behavioral health access and innovation. And today, so glad Kendra could join us. We've got a lot to talk about everything from lived experience and how to support folks with neurodivergencies. Thank you for being here, Kendra. I'm just so delighted and impressed by all of the work that you've been doing.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01] Kendra Koch, Founder, CEO of Divergently, Outcomes Rocket, CEO of Divergently, Outcomes Rocket, Social Innovation, Health and Human Services, and our guests are here in Washington, and how to support our chosen and healthensis.com, your work you've done. Why don't we get started with just a little introduction of who you are and what you do?

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00] Kendra Koch, Founder, Founder, Founder, Founder, and Founder, and Founder, CEO of Divergently, which is a wellness platform for late-diagnosed neurodivergent women. And what we do is help women get their needs met because they deserve it. So that's what I've been working on.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01] in the work that you do just as somebody who is 36 years old and just this year was also diagnosed with ADHD. And what a journey that has been. But I would love to hear from you, you know, how did receiving an ADHD diagnosis change the trajectory of your life and work?

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00] It really honed it, I would say. In some ways, it radically changed my life and work. And in other ways, it just refined what I was trying to do already and just didn't have the right direction. I got my diagnosis when I was pregnant with my daughter. I was 34. It was early pandemic. So I think that was a time when a lot of women were getting diagnosed for the

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00] first time. And I think like my experience was really confusing. Like I didn't know what to do with that information. I sort of put it off and didn't do anything with that information. And then when I had my daughter, my symptoms got a lot. I don't know if they were worse. They were just not manageable anymore because all of the systems and things that I had intuitively put in place to

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00] manage myself and my needs were just not compatible with motherhood. And, you know, your brain changes, like all this stuff happens. And I felt really angry, confused, ungrounded, like any feeling you could have, I felt it. And I mostly felt like duped because I had a degree in psychology.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00] I had been working in Silicon Valley in the wellness industry for over a decade. People called me a wellness expert in general. Like I'm pretty healthy. Like I go to the doctor and they're like, your labs look great. But this whole time, I'm like, why do I feel like crap if my labs look great and I'm so healthy and I'm this wellness expert and I feel terrible. And so I thought, okay, I should look back into this

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00] ADHD thing. And I looked into it and I was like, well, all this information is for parents of kids with ADHD or for educators or like I felt really lost looking for stuff that fit my life as an adult woman with like a baby and a husband and a career and all these things going on. And I wasn't so interested in like the clinical

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00] fix. I really wanted to just understand myself and what I needed. And so I started like unpacking everything I had learned in the wellness industry and essentially came to the conclusion that it doesn't work for neurodivergent women. That's why everything was not working for me and all these people who are coming to these products and services that I had been working on and also not really getting a fix.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00] And so Divergently was kind of my answer to that, which is like, there should be good information that is not just random videos on TikTok because that was the only thing I could find. And, you know, that's great, but I don't want to build my life around TikTok videos and my care plan. And then also I wanted a place where I could like process the feelings I had around it because that was like a

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00] really big part for me was just the emotional experience of the journey. And I do think like the emotional part of wellness was not considered like in my career before. And so that's the part that's changed. Now it's a big focus of what I do. That is just so amazing. And you make things so

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01] personal and down to earth, so easy to connect with. And I mean, I relate to so many things in your story and it's just so unfortunate, all those failure points that the system had failed you in getting the right support and that it had to come to that as it does for so many people. But just a huge fan of the work you do. And there's so many things I could ask you about, but I do know that we have

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01] quite a few entrepreneurs who listen to this show as well. I'd love to hear from you selfishly. Why is it important for behavioral health founders to prioritize their own mental health and wellbeing?

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think founders or any leader really in an organization need to do that because this is one of the things that I was bumping into a lot is like I was in the wellness industry. I was trying to manage my health. The people around me were not doing that. And I think like a lot of times there is just like a culture of burnout or a culture of like in the neurodivergent community,

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00] it's called masking. But I think for anybody else, it's just like fake it till you make it or like pretend you're fine kind of thing. And there's a certain like when you're building a company or you're serving a patient population or you're serving a team. If you're not steady, how can you expect them to be steady? And how can you really be there for them? And I think it's the same with

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00] parenting, right? Like if you're a disaster, your kids are going to pick up on that and start like acting out. So I just think mental health is always talked about like patient mental health, but we don't always talk about it as like, why don't we try that first and then go and give that service to people? Yeah.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01] Right. And even intertwined in what you just said, we can bring each of our identities in this. I mean, ADHD care for women. There's things that need to be tailored to certain populations. And what I love about the work that you do and has helped me so much, even getting into the behavioral health space is connecting with stories online of people with lived experience. It's one thing to, as you said,

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01] read a clinical document or watch a short clip of what is ADHD, but it's another thing entirely to finally feel like you can see yourself in somebody else. So I'd love to hear from you also. How do you think that storytelling promotes healing and better mental health outcomes for this population?

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think like when it comes to mental health, it's really important to have a sense of who you are. It's really hard to construct a life and like build a mental understanding of who you are and what you want to do in your life if you don't know who you are. And so like, that's why diagnosis is really important. Like women need to know how their brains work and what their needs are to be able to

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00] go out into the world and ask for those things or find those things and understand themselves. And I think like, for me, a lot of it just came down to being able to have self-compassion because it sounds really cheesy. And I know a lot of people are like, self-compassion, you know, and kind of dig on it. It sounds like very fluffy, but it's actually critical. And I think it's a super important

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00] in behavioral health care. And like, I know a lot of clinicians are working towards developing that with their clients. But if the client feels a deep mismatch between what people are telling them and how they feel inside, and they don't know why, it's extremely hard to get to that point of self-compassion. And for me, the diagnosis was like, I was on a spinning globe, and I didn't know like where I

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00] would get dropped, right? Like it would just like, I could be anywhere on that spinning globe. But when I had a diagnosis, I was like, I'm here, there was like a big red star, and I knew where I was. So I could navigate myself around the world better. And it made me feel like I had agency. And it made me feel like I could understand who I am. And I knew at least where to start looking for what I needed. So it's like, you don't know where you're going if you don't know where you are in the map.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00] And we need to help people get on the map. And yeah, I just think that's so important.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01] What a great analogy. I mean, I like to say that it felt like once I got the diagnosis myself, and the tools and being able to see other people experiencing so many of the things that I had experienced and didn't understand, it was like the clouds parted. And just how important to be able to have that community and access to tools and understanding to know where you are to navigate

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01] the world. What a game changer that makes. And again, women especially have experienced the healthcare system and have misdiagnoses, just pointed in the wrong direction. I'd love to hear from you where and why you think there's mistrust in the healthcare system right now? And what can we do about it?

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I'm obsessed with this question, because I think there's a lot of reasons why, but it's easy to blame social media. And this is where the storytelling piece comes in, right? Like social media is a place where people tell their stories, and you're way more likely to connect to someone's story. And the algorithms are also very good at like, feeding you more things that you're looking at. And so if you have a hunch about something, it will give you more and more of that, which is dangerous.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00] Like that's actually dangerous. And it has also helped people. But I think like where the mistrust comes in is like, when women get more of their needs met from watching TikTok videos, or they see themselves more there, they feel more seen and understood through connecting with other people, than when they go into their doctor saying, I'm not okay, and I need help. That's just a huge miss on

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00] the medical system. And I think like, unfortunately, a lot of the mistrust and hatred gets dumped on doctors, which is unfair to them. Because yeah, there's like bad doctors, there's bad of anybody in any profession. But in general, I haven't met that many clinicians who don't deeply care about their patients. Like most people don't go into medicine, it's extremely hard field. And it's like, years of

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00] studies, very expensive, there's like risk involved. Most people don't do that if they don't care. So I'm like, your doctor probably cares, but your doctor is also part of the same system that patients are part of. So they are also harmed by the system. But I think people just are not aware of like, how complex the system is. So it's just like, I don't trust doctors, because they don't help me get my needs met. And

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00] it's like, well, your doctor's probably doing the best they can in a 10 minute window with the insurance that you have, and the like compliance that you probably aren't really doing. And like, there's just a lot of pieces to it. So I think, if patients and doctors can better see each other as partners, both kind of swimming upstream of this difficult system, the relationship can be better, and we can get better

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00] results. And then I think the other piece is less interpersonal and more about like, language, because doctors have a certain language in the way that they speak and the way that like, they communicate things very different from like, the average person walking around. I just think about every time my in-laws go to the doctor, they have to like, interpret for them, like what the doctor told them. And that's why

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00] I think it's important for me to make the things that I say relatable. Because like, if you don't understand what your doctor's telling you, and you don't have the context for it, like, I think doctors can do better about getting context, then you're not going to trust what they're telling you, whether it's good information or not. If you don't understand it, you're not going to trust it. And so that's a

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00] big piece. But it's also just the state that we're in of general frustration, a lot of people getting more sick and feeling less cared for and used to easy solves. And health is not an easy, it's not like buying sheets on Amazon, you know, like you can like, get a, your health mix so quickly.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01] It is tough to find the silky ones if I do say so myself, but yeah, that's true. That makes so much sense. And really high quality care providers are competing with what's most engaging online. And it's just a lot to navigate, which is a great segue into learning a little bit more about the work you're doing at Divergently. Can you share a little bit about what the experience is like for women who are participating?

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, well, I hope that the experience is like, when you finally sit down after a really long day, and you're just like, you know, and you just feel all the weight coming off, and you can relax, and you don't have any demands on you. And you're just in like, your safe, cozy space. Like, that's what I want it to feel like. But what it is, is actually a place where women can get information about their neurodivergence, whether or not they're diagnosed, even if they're just self-identified or questioning

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00] and curious, like, trying to figure themselves out, and get peer support. So talk to other women who have been through it, or who might be in a similar place. And also get information from vetted experts who can cover everything from how to exercise when you have ADHD or you're hypermobile, to like, I just got diagnosed, now what? So we'll kind of cover the whole range of things that come up for

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00] people because neurodivergence is a lifetime thing. It's not like an illness that you take a pill and gets cured. So there's a lot of topics that we'll cover. And then we have support groups for grief and things that come up around your diagnosis. Just because, like I was saying earlier, the emotional piece is just such a huge part of it. And therapists don't always have the time to get into like all the

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00] practical day-to-day, like, things that come up for women. So we try to be there for women in between, you know, therapy sessions. And if they don't have therapists, we can help them find one. So the goal is really just to be that place where you can come and get your needs met, whether they're I want to talk to a friend or I need a therapist or I want to learn about myself. And then we try to promote like neurodivergent-owned brands and things like that too. So yeah, it's a fun space. It's

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00] basically the thing that I wished I had when I got diagnosed. And I'm like, it doesn't exist. So I guess

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01] I'll just have to make it. So I was thinking the same thing the entire time. Like I said, I have so many things I wish I could ask you about. But as we're coming up on time, if you could tell our audience, how can they get enrolled in your next cohort? Yeah. So if you go to joindivergently.com,

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00] you can add yourself to the waitlist and then you'll get an email and we'll send you information. And if you do that, you'll also be added to our newsletter. That's probably the quickest way. We're also at Joinedivergently on social media platforms, mostly TikTok, LinkedIn, Instagram.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much, Kendra. Such a delight to hear your story and the work that you do each day. It's so important. And I'll speak for so many women who benefit from Divergently in the work you do. So thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing more. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Expanding Access. We hope you're feeling inspired by today's discussion.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01] If you've enjoyed the episode, subscribe and share it with your network. For more content and opportunities to get involved in transforming care, visit behavioralhealthtech.com. Until next time, let's keep pushing boundaries and expanding access together.