Pioneering Tomorrow's Healthcare Solutions Through AI with David E. Williams, president of Health Business Group and founder of Atumcell

[00:00:02] Hey, everybody.

[00:00:03] Welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket.

[00:00:05] I have the privilege of hosting David Williams back on the podcast.

[00:00:10] We had him back on the podcast back in 2017 and it's so great to have him back.

[00:00:15] A lot has changed.

[00:00:16] He's been doing such incredible work.

[00:00:19] I also had the privilege of being a guest on his podcast, the Health Biz

[00:00:23] Podcast, where he interviews really awesome guests.

[00:00:26] I'll link that up in the show notes, but president, he is the president

[00:00:29] of the Health Business Group.

[00:00:31] They're a Boston-based consulting firm that helps clients in the life sciences,

[00:00:35] technology enabled health services, and private equity develop and

[00:00:39] execute innovative business strategies.

[00:00:41] He co-founded the company in 2003 after more of a decade as a consultant for

[00:00:46] Boston Consulting Group and L.E.K., very focused on AI and cybersecurity, two

[00:00:52] hot topics that are on all of our minds.

[00:00:54] So David, thanks so much for joining us again.

[00:00:57] Hey Saul, it's my pleasure.

[00:00:58] I feel privileged to be invited back after seven years.

[00:01:01] Most people don't invite me back for 10 to 20 years because of this

[00:01:04] uproar that I cause their show.

[00:01:06] So I appreciate that confidence.

[00:01:07] Hey David, I love, I love it.

[00:01:09] And I'm so glad to welcome you back.

[00:01:11] You have such a fresh approach and I made sure to tell you that

[00:01:14] while we were on your show together.

[00:01:16] You just have a really nice way of synthesizing and

[00:01:19] summarizing, so excited for today.

[00:01:21] Look, for the people that don't know you, tell them a little bit about you and

[00:01:24] tell them about the work that you focus on.

[00:01:26] Yeah, sounds good.

[00:01:26] I've done strategy consulting in healthcare for a long time and I

[00:01:29] started this company 20 years ago.

[00:01:30] But even before that at Boston Consulting Group, I got into that.

[00:01:34] And even way back in high school, I was in the computer and healthcare business

[00:01:38] when I had my first summer job at a VA hospital doing programming.

[00:01:42] But basically we help organizations to navigate in the ever-changing

[00:01:46] environment in healthcare.

[00:01:47] We work on growth planning.

[00:01:49] And then when we work with private equity firms and helping them do due diligence

[00:01:53] to make sure that they're making the right decision in

[00:01:55] the companies that they buy.

[00:01:57] That's awesome, David.

[00:01:58] Really important work.

[00:01:59] When you think about the biggest value you add to the organizations

[00:02:03] that you work with, what would you sum it up as?

[00:02:07] A lot of times it's the external perspective.

[00:02:09] And so for example, a company will be thinking about doing something and

[00:02:12] they may have a vague idea that others might be doing it.

[00:02:15] We'll get out there.

[00:02:16] We'll speak with the competitors.

[00:02:17] We'll speak with the customers and find out what's going on really

[00:02:20] in the external environment.

[00:02:21] So we're very good at doing that.

[00:02:23] And then strategic frameworks, helping people organize their various

[00:02:26] thoughts into a way that you can say, Hey, does this make sense strategically?

[00:02:30] Does it not?

[00:02:31] What do we need to do to sharpen up our strategy and our approach?

[00:02:34] Certainly providing some very important data points to help all of us move

[00:02:39] forward in the big bets that we're making.

[00:02:41] And one of the big bets that many people are making is on AI.

[00:02:45] Do you care to share some of the insights you've been gaining here in that respect?

[00:02:49] Well, AI is a real interesting space and it's been around for quite a while.

[00:02:53] The different types of AI and AI is actually used in a lot of places in

[00:02:57] machine learning within healthcare.

[00:02:59] What happened just about a year ago with the introduction of Chats GPT is now

[00:03:04] generative AI came out and people could see, wow, what does it really mean as

[00:03:08] opposed to being just a general concept in the past?

[00:03:11] So what we saw over the past, let's say eight months or so is companies saying,

[00:03:15] Hey, this is important to us.

[00:03:17] Now we need to take a strategic approach to using AI.

[00:03:20] So for example, they'll say, well, gee, we could do all these things that

[00:03:22] we never thought about before.

[00:03:24] And at the same time, if we look at how we built up our own business, maybe with a

[00:03:28] lot of, let's say pharmacists or physician input, you could say, if I were starting

[00:03:32] this business today and I had AI, I might do it a lot differently, a lot more cheaply.

[00:03:38] And so they have to think about what does that mean?

[00:03:41] And then they'll find actually, if they're in the, let's say the space where they've

[00:03:44] got existing data and relationships, they'll find a lot of startup companies

[00:03:47] coming to them and saying, Hey, can we use your database in order

[00:03:51] to train our models and so on?

[00:03:53] So there's a lot of new questions that come up because you've got

[00:03:57] potentially new customers.

[00:03:59] You've got new competitors.

[00:04:00] You've got new ways to do business yourself.

[00:04:03] And because now people can see generative AI, they can see that what the potential

[00:04:07] is and just actually what you can do right now.

[00:04:09] So it introduces a whole new flood of opportunities for us because people hire

[00:04:14] us when they have complicated new questions to answer.

[00:04:18] Yeah.

[00:04:18] And there's a lot of questions around it.

[00:04:20] The other area you cover is cybersecurity.

[00:04:23] So you also have a cybersecurity company.

[00:04:26] So tell us a little bit more about that, man.

[00:04:28] That's super interesting and talk about great timing.

[00:04:30] So what happened is during the pandemic, a lot of people got a new hobby, maybe

[00:04:34] got a new puppy or something like that.

[00:04:36] And I say that I started a new business.

[00:04:38] What happened is I was approached by some researchers in Europe and they said

[00:04:42] they'd been studying research, the whole internet scan, everything.

[00:04:45] And they said the most vulnerable organizations in the world are US hospitals.

[00:04:50] And since we work with hospitals and they have a way to stop ransomware,

[00:04:54] we should work together.

[00:04:55] Look at the analysis.

[00:04:57] It turned out to be exactly on point because as you'll see in hospitals in

[00:05:01] particular and others within healthcare have been hit hard by cybersecurity

[00:05:04] over the last few years.

[00:05:06] But I said, you know what?

[00:05:07] You're right about the vulnerability, but they're actually pretty difficult customers.

[00:05:12] They've got a lot of other things going on.

[00:05:13] They're very difficult environments to protect.

[00:05:15] They don't have the right budgets.

[00:05:17] And so let's not actually emphasize healthcare.

[00:05:20] So let's actually focus on private equity, which is a space that understands risk.

[00:05:25] They like to manage as a portfolio and have powerful tools that we use.

[00:05:28] That's why I actually created a separate company called Atomcell.

[00:05:32] So while we do work in the healthcare space and cybersecurity, we work

[00:05:35] actually across industries, but there's a lot going on in healthcare and

[00:05:38] cybersecurity, which I'd be happy to discuss some more if you'd like.

[00:05:41] Fascinating.

[00:05:42] I love this.

[00:05:42] And man, I don't even know how you do it.

[00:05:45] Two companies now.

[00:05:46] Like what's your secret?

[00:05:48] Secret is I used to have a big job running a volunteer organization, my synagogue.

[00:05:52] And I say, it's a lot easier to run a company than to run a synagogue.

[00:05:56] So I have time for two companies because I'm not doing that any anymore.

[00:05:59] Oh man.

[00:06:00] Well, listen, I'm sure they miss you there, but also the work that you're

[00:06:03] doing with the cybersecurity firm is very meaningful and of course, the work

[00:06:07] that you do in your consulting area.

[00:06:09] When you take a look at the industry and what you guys do, what

[00:06:13] would you say set you guys apart?

[00:06:14] What's your unique selling proposition?

[00:06:17] I started off work at LEK.

[00:06:19] I was consulting from right out of college.

[00:06:21] So it was a long while ago.

[00:06:22] And what they were really good at was the primary data gathering.

[00:06:26] We contrasted maybe to some of the other firms that relied maybe more on their

[00:06:29] experience or their networks and just give you guidance and really roll up

[00:06:33] our sleeves and get in there and speak with customers, speak with competitors,

[00:06:37] speak with experts and learn what's going on the ground.

[00:06:40] Now the difference here is rolling that forward a few decades.

[00:06:43] We still take that approach with a real primary research, but we also now do have

[00:06:49] the expertise, the networks and so on.

[00:06:51] So we combine the best of those.

[00:06:52] So our teams look different than a typical consulting firm, much more experienced.

[00:06:57] And at the same time, we do the in-depth primary research that might be done by

[00:07:02] more junior analysts.

[00:07:04] So that's what's unique about us.

[00:07:05] Yeah.

[00:07:06] Thanks for sharing that.

[00:07:07] I imagine the, that primary data is a huge difference maker with the work that you do,

[00:07:12] David, I'm sure you oftentimes can run into things that don't work out as well.

[00:07:17] So talk to us about setbacks, things that you've seen that have made you guys even

[00:07:22] better.

[00:07:22] We see, we have the opportunity for, to have learned a lot about consulting from

[00:07:27] having been in consulting for a long while.

[00:07:29] I have colleagues that have been at other firms in the past.

[00:07:33] And so when we set our firm up, we decided let's try to do it the right way.

[00:07:36] So one thing is that even very great place like where I work, Boston

[00:07:41] Consulting Group, you've got a team of five or six people and chances are there's

[00:07:45] one or two of them that aren't adding so much value compared with others.

[00:07:49] And so we just skip those two and we just include the two or three that

[00:07:52] are going to add the value.

[00:07:54] And then the other piece is that when you have somebody that's right out of

[00:07:57] business school or right out of college, I remember thinking like, phew, that's

[00:08:00] impressive that we're getting hired to do this.

[00:08:02] I don't really know anything about what I'm doing now.

[00:08:04] We had very good guidance, but we find that it's actually a more successful

[00:08:09] approach if we use ourselves, more senior people to actually do that rather than

[00:08:14] having separate team that's managing the client versus who's actually rolling up

[00:08:18] our sleeves and doing the work.

[00:08:20] I would say that's the case.

[00:08:21] Now, one of the things that we had tried to do at one point was to hire more

[00:08:25] junior people and to manage them remotely.

[00:08:28] This is before the pandemic.

[00:08:29] And it turned out that people needed, we assumed too much that people already

[00:08:34] knew too much, knew a lot, and were very experienced and didn't

[00:08:37] not need a lot of supervision.

[00:08:39] And what we found was that wasn't really the case.

[00:08:41] We weren't actually getting that much leverage.

[00:08:43] And also that clients are willing to pay for senior people to do the

[00:08:47] work if they do it effectively.

[00:08:49] Love it.

[00:08:49] Hey, I'd love to hear about some wins.

[00:08:51] Can you share any wins that you've been able to score for clients of late?

[00:08:56] I think we have wins in terms of clarifying thinking.

[00:08:59] And also we have, let's say in this area of looking at AI in healthcare, a big

[00:09:05] area is just to help people to figure out how to think about it.

[00:09:08] So we work with a larger company to understand where are the opportunities?

[00:09:11] They know they need to do something with AI.

[00:09:14] And so first it's just helping to define what are the different types of AI?

[00:09:18] We're talking about generative AI.

[00:09:19] What else is there?

[00:09:21] That's out there.

[00:09:21] What maps to the different parts of their business and then using a

[00:09:24] framework to help them say, Hey, there is things, some things you can do on

[00:09:28] the offensive side, which are going after new markets, and then there's

[00:09:32] some things that you could do more on the defensive side, like defending

[00:09:34] yourself from, from competitors that might be coming into your space.

[00:09:38] And so just really laying that out in a way that helped them

[00:09:41] understand where the potential is.

[00:09:43] And then also speaking with their customers and understanding from those

[00:09:47] customers that they actually are interested in our client doing work

[00:09:50] in AI, even though our company is clients, not really an AI company.

[00:09:55] And it turned out that the expertise that our client had, the trust that

[00:10:00] they built up because they do have professionals that are doing the work.

[00:10:03] They don't make mistakes.

[00:10:04] They're, they have very good quality.

[00:10:06] Plus how embedded they are in the workflow meant that they have an

[00:10:10] opportunity to actually work with AI in a way that they might not have thought of.

[00:10:14] So we helped to change their view on that and to get them started on some

[00:10:18] initiatives, to be able to take advantage of that and be successful in the space

[00:10:21] rather than just observers of others' success.

[00:10:24] That's awesome, David.

[00:10:24] Thanks for sharing that.

[00:10:25] And about how many people, just like I'm sure folks here, you're probably

[00:10:29] wondering, this is great, either you've done the research or you've worked with

[00:10:33] a company like David's to get insights for the work that you do for the strategy

[00:10:38] that you're employing to take advantage of these things like AI and what are you

[00:10:41] doing to protect your company against cyber attacks or your organization?

[00:10:45] But maybe some of you guys haven't.

[00:10:46] So David, for those that haven't, and even for those that have, how many people

[00:10:51] are you usually reaching out to and how does the whole process work

[00:10:54] and what's the right number?

[00:10:57] Yeah.

[00:10:57] So when we were doing our research, we're tapping existing networks.

[00:11:01] We also do work with some, some expert networks and then we'll

[00:11:05] go out and cold call people.

[00:11:07] And so a typical project, we might get input from anywhere from 20 to 50 people.

[00:11:13] And it depends on kind of the breadth of what we're doing or even more than 50.

[00:11:16] But usually in one phase, it's not more than, it's not more than 50.

[00:11:19] And so you want to get exactly to the right people that actually know something.

[00:11:24] There's a lot of people that will just talk without knowing that much.

[00:11:26] So a key thing is to be able to identify who's actually going to be able to give

[00:11:30] you insight beyond just the talking points.

[00:11:33] And then what I find also is that when we're dealing with something that's

[00:11:35] more conceptual, like a new product concept or even some things related to AI,

[00:11:41] it is useful in an interview, not just to speak with somebody, but let's say to

[00:11:44] have a one page illustration and say, this is what we're thinking about.

[00:11:48] This is the concept.

[00:11:49] And that way everybody's literally on the same page and you go back and it's

[00:11:53] not like we talked to 50 people and they all have a different view or they're

[00:11:56] saying things that are actually hard to compare, no, we showed them the same

[00:12:00] kind of an input and now this is what we're getting out of it.

[00:12:03] So that's maybe an answer for how many people we're seeing.

[00:12:05] That's great.

[00:12:06] And with 50 people, you're definitely getting a great sampling of insights from

[00:12:09] the market, seeing trends to be able to make some decisions off of that.

[00:12:13] I love it.

[00:12:14] What would you say is a trend or technology that people need to be on top of right now?

[00:12:21] I do believe that it's important to look at these various productivity tools.

[00:12:26] Especially since we've gone from a fully in-person working to remote to now hybrid

[00:12:32] and there's all sorts of tools.

[00:12:33] Everything out there has a co-pilot with it or some kind of an AI widget and used

[00:12:39] properly, you can actually get a lot of value out of these tools.

[00:12:44] So I would encourage people to look at various AI tools for automation and

[00:12:49] productivity.

[00:12:50] One trend that I have seen a lot of is the use of these AI based note takers

[00:12:56] that will come to a meeting and they do a summary of the meeting, they

[00:12:59] record the meeting and so on.

[00:13:01] I am actually not a big fan.

[00:13:02] I'm a general, yeah, I generally embrace technologies, but in this case, what I

[00:13:07] find is I'm a pretty good note taker and I want to take it there in the moment.

[00:13:12] It also actually helps me stay focused on the conversation if I'm writing as

[00:13:17] opposed to say, but the AI note taker is doing it and I'll review it later.

[00:13:21] So I find that's more of a crutch that I don't like.

[00:13:26] Now maybe it will get better.

[00:13:28] So I think people should evaluate them.

[00:13:30] If you're not a good note taker, maybe you want to try it.

[00:13:32] Or if you're sharing with the team.

[00:13:33] I love that.

[00:13:34] David, what do you do for fun?

[00:13:36] Like you do a lot of really cool stuff on the work side, but what do you do for fun?

[00:13:39] Yeah.

[00:13:40] Oh, I've loved working.

[00:13:41] So it's, so it is important, I think for sustainability to enjoy what you do.

[00:13:45] I love to go to the beach.

[00:13:47] Now a little problem I have with that is I'm a bald redhead.

[00:13:50] So I can only go to the beach for two minutes without getting burned up.

[00:13:53] So I do cover up well, but yeah, I like to go kayaking.

[00:13:56] I like to go swimming, biking that kind of thing, walking along the beach.

[00:14:01] So I like to do that.

[00:14:01] I like to read when I have time to do that, do podcast.

[00:14:04] I do my podcast.

[00:14:05] That's fun.

[00:14:06] I do crossword puzzles, go to the gym, hang out with my family, that kind of thing.

[00:14:10] Love it.

[00:14:10] Hey, you asked me the book question and now I want to ask you.

[00:14:13] So any book recommendations for us?

[00:14:16] Yeah.

[00:14:16] So I I've been reading the biography of Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson.

[00:14:20] The new one.

[00:14:21] There's a new one, right?

[00:14:22] Okay, cool.

[00:14:22] Cool.

[00:14:23] How is it so far?

[00:14:23] It's from 2023.

[00:14:24] It's great.

[00:14:25] It's highly recommended.

[00:14:26] And actually here's the technology.

[00:14:28] So on Spotify premium, if you have that, you could actually get audio books and

[00:14:32] they give you 10 hours a month.

[00:14:33] So I actually, I have the physical book, but then if I'm at the gym, I might be

[00:14:38] listening to it and then I'll just go between Spotify and the book.

[00:14:41] And I actually find that hybrid approach a good way for doing that.

[00:14:44] But I like that one a lot.

[00:14:45] I mean, Elon Musk has had just an incredible impact.

[00:14:49] I have some of his products and I've, I have a general understanding of what he's

[00:14:53] doing, but it's actually helpful to get the whole story down and I find it even

[00:14:57] is a bit helpful in my own management.

[00:15:00] I'm definitely tend to be on the empathetic and nice side, although

[00:15:04] hardworking of course, but so I don't want to be as much of a jackass as he is.

[00:15:08] But in some cases maybe I need to do a little bit more of that.

[00:15:11] So that's what I'm enjoying.

[00:15:12] Love it, man.

[00:15:12] Great recommendation.

[00:15:13] I saw it on the bookshelf at the airport a couple of weeks ago.

[00:15:16] I'm like, Oh, I got to pick that up.

[00:15:18] So now with your vote, I will be picking that one up and folks pick it up too.

[00:15:23] It's all about learning and advancing outcomes, both business and health.

[00:15:28] Look, if people want to get to know you better or learn more about the work you

[00:15:32] do, David, where can they reach you?

[00:15:35] So I think the best way to do it, you can email me at

[00:15:37] dwilliams at healthbusinessgroup.com.

[00:15:39] Take a look at the Health Biz podcast, which you can find anywhere that you

[00:15:44] get your podcasts as they say, including Apple podcasts and also it's available on

[00:15:49] YouTube.

[00:15:49] Those are good places where just tap me on LinkedIn.

[00:15:52] Amazing.

[00:15:53] David, folks, make sure you check out Dave's podcast.

[00:15:56] I was just on it.

[00:15:57] So go check out my interview.

[00:15:58] If you like our interviews.

[00:15:59] Yeah, check out that one.

[00:16:00] Make sure to like that one.

[00:16:02] And that's probably was a highlight.

[00:16:03] Now that was a good one.

[00:16:04] So we had a good time.

[00:16:05] Thanks Dave.

[00:16:05] No, but honestly, outside of me, he's got some really great interviews on there.

[00:16:09] And the way that David does his interviews is engaging, very personalized

[00:16:15] and you also leave with nuggets.

[00:16:16] So definitely a big fan of his podcast.

[00:16:18] Check that out.

[00:16:19] We're going to link up every way that you could get in touch with David,

[00:16:23] listen to his podcast in the show notes.

[00:16:25] So make sure you check those out.

[00:16:27] Thank you for listening everybody.

[00:16:28] And David, thanks for joining us.

[00:16:30] Hey, Saul, it's a great pleasure.

[00:16:31] I'll see you in another seven to 15 years.

[00:16:34] See you soon, my friend.

[00:16:35] Take care.