Reinventing Blood Testing for Better Patient Experience with Web Golinkin, President at Babson Diagnostics

[00:00:01] Hello everyone, welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket, recorded live here in Los Angeles from the Vive Conference.

[00:00:25] I'm excited to be with Web Golinkin again, President of Babson Diagnostics. He was with us in November at Health. I'm excited to provide another update from him and his company. Web, so great to see you again. It's great to be here. Saul, I'm enjoying this conference and there's a lot of exciting news and development about Babson and our BetterWay system that I'm looking forward to sharing with you and your viewers.

[00:00:55] Thank you, Web. We're excited to hear it. So for those that haven't heard about you or the company, let's start there. Yeah, so Babson's story is a very unusual story.

[00:01:11] We've done a skunkworks project at Siemens in 2015, you know, spun out of the company Siemens in 2017, hooked up with Beckton Dickinson shortly thereafter, and literally for the past decade, has been developing a fingertip blood collection process and ecosystem that we've proven has significantly preferred by patients versus conventional methods.

[00:01:38] We now have a test menu of 68 tests that represent more than 80 percent of what's normally ordered in primary care. And for the last year or so, we've been taking it into the mainstream of the health care industry. We've already been commercialized in Austin, which I can tell you about. But this is truly a science first company.

[00:02:01] I mean, they've spent or we've spent, you know, the last decade developing and validating the technology. And we've proven that not only do patients prefer it over conventional blood testing methods, but you don't need a phlebotomist. And that unlocks decentralized locations, enables providers to acquire new patients, to reduce leakage.

[00:02:25] So there are lots of benefits, you know, both in terms of the quality of care and outcomes, you know, as well as financially. I mean, I know I don't like going to the doctor and then having to go to the blood, get my blood exam. This is kind of helping me do it in one place. Yeah, no, it's, you know, I don't think really anybody likes to have a needle stuck in their arm. I mean, I don't know anybody that does.

[00:02:52] And if you look at the research, you know, about a third of patients are non-adherent to testing. You know, so you can imagine what kind of problem that represents. You know, so for patients, you end up with worse outcomes. For providers, you're losing patients. And for payers, it's much more expensive at the end of the day when you don't catch things early. So, you know, there are lots of issues related to that specifically.

[00:03:17] But there have also been some recent surveys which show that as many as 80% of patients have some level of anxiety about getting their blood tested. So not only there's sort of the needle phobia problem, but there's also just general like I just don't really like this experience. And so if you can offer an alternative, you know, there's a significant opportunity for providers who are offering better way to just increase patient satisfaction generally. And I think that, you know, ramifies, you know, potentially throughout their organization.

[00:03:47] Totally. Yeah. Big impact. It unlocks access in a new way. No, that's a really good point. And one of the things that's happened, I think, since the last time we spoke is that we've made an agreement with Gabby Thomas. So Gabby was a three-time gold medal winner at the last Olympics in Paris. She's going to be competing. She's a sprinter. Oh, she's a sprinter. Was the fastest woman in the world at one time.

[00:04:17] She may be now still. But the interesting thing about Gabby is that from our point of view is not only is she a celebrated athlete, she's got more than a million Instagram followers, but she's got a neuroscience degree from Harvard and a master's in epidemiology from the University of Texas. And she loves better way. And the reason she loves it is because she believes that it will increase access. So you mentioned access. And I think that's the key here.

[00:04:44] You know, by offering a patient-preferred blood collection and system, you can reach people that otherwise, you know, have been non-adherentive testing or just simply don't like the process. You know, Webb, we literally just did an interview on community health workers and their impact in health.

[00:05:05] And I'm just thinking, what an unlock there to be able to match a technology like this with community workers that can deliver the care with trust. No, no, no question. You know, it's and, you know, I've been in the outpatient in the world for 25 years, you know, prior to joining, you know, Babson about a year and a half ago. And, you know, I'm very, you know, I had an opportunity to observe the limitations of the inopocter.

[00:05:36] You know, basically patients don't like it. So a lot of them don't get it. And then from an operational standpoint, if you're a provider now, you know, you may have somebody in an outpatient facility who's a phleotomist who but it's more likely you have somebody as cross trained as a phleotomist. You know, maybe that person doesn't show up that day. Maybe they don't do it that often. So maybe they're not very good at it.

[00:05:59] So the opportunity to basically cross train, you know, all of your team members in a clinic to be able to collect blood is a pretty significant operational advantage, we think. And there's another piece of our ecosystem, which is, you know, we collect basically 90 percent less blood. And then in our mini draw tube, which is an FDA clear device, we then drop it into our automated sample preparation device.

[00:06:27] And that device mixes, centrifuges and stores the samples at cold temperatures until they're picked up by our couriers. And so there's every part of the process is automated. There's no labeling because the tube is barcoded in the factory. And so we're reducing pre-analytical errors, which is the source of a lot of the problems with blood testing today. So it's not just the blood collection process.

[00:06:52] It's the sample preparation process, you know, as well as what we do in our CLIA certified CAP accredited lab in Austin. Well, it sounds like it's a very well thought out system. It's amazingly well thought out. And I'm not taking credit for that. As I said, I've been involved in the company for the past year and a half. But there are many terrific BAPS and team members who, in a very science first way, in a very scientifically rigorous way,

[00:07:22] have developed this technology and then systematically gotten it validated. And so, you know, the evidence of validation is 45 IRB studies, 4,300 study participants, more than 850,000 tests run. And now two peer-reviewed journal articles that have established without any question that our results are clinically equivalent to conventional methods. Well, that's fantastic. And what attracted you to the project? Yeah.

[00:07:52] Well, you know, as I said, I've had a chance, you know, over the past 25 or 30 years to observe the limitations of venipuncture. And, you know, 70% of medical decisions are based on blood testing. And yet there hasn't been any fundamental change in the way blood has been collected in seven decades. And so when I found out about Babson and, you know, and learned, you know, more about it,

[00:08:15] I just, you know, kind of couldn't resist the temptation to, you know, to want to help the company bring this technology into the mainstream of health care. This is an area that needs attention. I think the technology we have is, you know, is transformational. Having said that, you know, this is an exercise in change management for the reasons I suggested. You know, this is not something where you flick the switch and suddenly, you know, everybody's going to offer a better way.

[00:08:45] You know, it takes time to, you know, to make sure for, you know, for large providers, including but not limited to health systems, you know, to understand the benefits, you know, to be very sure that, you know, our results are clinically equivalent. Fortunately, we have all the data to prove that and to, you know, to work with us to build, you know, a parallel system here that patients prefer

[00:09:12] and that operates, you know, that offers operational efficiency at the same time. Totally. Yeah, it's a big opportunity. And when you think about patient experience as a competitive differentiator for providers, how does Better Way fit in on that? Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is that, you know, one of the biggest trends in health care, as you know, Saul, is that it's moving away from the hospital more into ambulatory and outpatient care.

[00:09:42] And, you know, I've participated in that. So I'm very familiar with that territory. That's where the puck has been going. And, you know, that's great, except the result is that it's much more competitive than it used to be. It used to be when I was, you know, in, I'm, you know, was a, one of my companies was a pioneer in retail health care. And I led a very large company that operated more than 170 urgent care clinics.

[00:10:09] The biggest differentiator at the beginning was just simple convenience. You know, if you put health care clinics in close proximity to patients, you know, that was just a major step in the right direction. You know, if you had it open seven days a week, extended weekday hours, all of those things, that was enough, you know, it wasn't enough by itself to succeed, but that was the main draw. Now, with the increased competitiveness of ambulatory care,

[00:10:38] I really believe that patient experience is the single biggest differentiator. So that's the opportunity that, you know, that we have with providers to offer, you know, patient preferred experience. And so, you know, I think patient experience is at the core of everything now. And we're able to offer it in a way that's, you know, in an area that's fundamental to medicine. Listen, we love Starbucks and Amazon and streaming. We want the same thing in health care as consumers.

[00:11:08] Yeah, no, I think we do. And at the same time, you know, we, in a sense, we're taking advantage of the, of providers move towards more ambulatory care, because what they've done is they've, they've invested in convenience. And so we're not trying to go around them. We're trying to offer them the ability to offer this better way service, you know, using, using their infrastructure.

[00:11:36] So they're providing the convenience. We're, we're enabling them to offer a patient preferred blood testing experience. And so, you know, we envision very strong partnerships moving forward. That's fantastic. What, what are the most underappreciated levers that, that ambulatory care strategy that, that move the needle on growth? And where does blood testing fit in that?

[00:12:03] Well, look, I, as I mentioned, blood testing is 70% of medical decision-making is based on blood testing. So you start there. Yeah. So anything you can do to improve the patient experience is going to be welcome. And the difference between our 79 net promoter score, which is what we've earned during the 18 months of commercialization, and the negative net promoter score that the leading lab companies have achieved

[00:12:33] is pretty substantial. So it's not like we're saying, well, this is... So it's negative versus 70. Yeah. So we're not just saying this is a little bit better. You know, we're saying that this is, this is, we've shown that this is a lot better. Lightyear's better. Yeah, lightyear's better. And so at the same time, you know, we're also saying, you don't, you don't need a phlebotomist in your clinic necessarily. Now, I'm not saying that there won't be a role for phlebotomists because there are, you know, we have a very broad menu of tests, but, you know,

[00:13:02] we don't have all of the tests in the universe. And so there is plenty of need for phlebotomists. And I think that need is actually only going to grow moving forward. But in an ambulatory care setting, you know, where you can, you know, offer a patient preferred experience and you can, you don't need a phlebotomist, I think it's a tremendous advantage. So, you know, basically, again, it's patient preferred experience,

[00:13:30] you know, which is important to competitiveness and staffing efficiency, you know, which relates to you don't need a phlebotomist. Plus, as I mentioned, the sample preparation device saves labor time on the back end of phlebotomy. So what people sometimes don't understand is, yeah, you collect blood, but then, you know, there's a lot of labeling and centrifugation and manual work that grows, you know, into the process after you actually collect the blood. We've automated all of that stuff.

[00:13:59] And so, you know, that's a tremendous advantage, I think, too. That's great, Webb. And, you know, as I think about the end user of this system, you know, you've got different populations, you've got the elderly, you've got, you know, workers, you've got kids. You covering all of them? No, well, we're not covering all of them. So at the moment, this is 18 and over. Okay. You know, as you can imagine, we're, you know, we're working on pediatrics. Yeah, I would imagine.

[00:14:29] But again, we have, you know, we've now, you know, successfully with Better Way tested thousands of patients and of all, you know, demographic groups. So other than pediatrics. Sure, sure. And so it's not, you know, I don't think the patient preference is focused on any particular segment of the population. It's just generally speaking. Oh, for sure.

[00:14:54] But, you know, if you think about it, you know, one of the biggest healthcare problems we have in this country is chronic disease. And so people who either have chronic diseases, in some case, multiple chronic diseases or are in the danger zone or the red zone, those people, you know, need to get tested on a regular basis. And so when you need to get tested on a regular basis, the advantage of being able to offer

[00:15:20] a process that actually is patient friendly is even more of an advantage. So basically, you know, the more you need to get tested, the more of an advantage this actually is to be able to offer it. Definitely. Yeah. And my head was just going to, all right, somebody needing to take off of work to go to the doctor and the phlebotomist. Or if you're an elderly person that needs, that doesn't have transportation, right? Like that's only one ride you have to get.

[00:15:49] So like when you think of care logistics and care coordination, it seems to me that it also becomes a lot easier. Yeah, no question. I mean, again, the convenience that, you know, the large providers are already building into the system, you know, we're just leveraging that. But there's another, you know, there's another dimension to this, which is, you know, in some cases, a patient goes to a provider in order to diagnose the patient properly. The clinician needs them to get tested.

[00:16:19] If they don't have an onsite blood collection capability, they get sent to a patient service center, you know, operated by, you know, one of the large traditional companies, you know, in a reasonable number of cases, the patient never actually goes to get those tests. And so essentially that provider has lost the patient for all intents and purposes. And that's bad for the patient, bad for the provider, and also bad for the payer at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah, no, in a big way.

[00:16:49] So in markets like Austin with convenient blood testing, what convinces health organizations that better lab experiences translate to better business? Well, you know, as I mentioned, we've started to commercialize Better Way in Austin 18 months ago. And that's largely where the 79 net promoter score comes from. And we've also trained, you know, hundreds of people who the vast majority of whom had

[00:17:18] never collected blood before, you know, to be able to administer a system. Where if you would ask them, you know, how do you feel about collecting blood? Usually at the beginning, they say, you know, I don't think I can do that. But we have a less than three hour training program. You know, it's very structured. And at the end of the day, you know, we've enabled them to do it. So, you know, I think the advantages of this system are pretty, they're not only pretty strong,

[00:17:45] but they're pretty self-evident, you know, if you take a closer look at it. You know, what this company has done over the past 10 years to really develop and validate this technology to this point is truly impressive. And as I say, I'm not taking credit for it. But I believe that it's going to be transformational in the healthcare delivery system. I agree with you. I agree with you. Well, look, it's always fantastic to connect with you, Webb.

[00:18:13] I enjoy these conversations because of the experience you share. And then now with the work that you guys are up to at Babson with Better Way, it's just inspiring. So I always look forward to our next one. Before then, just give us a closing thought for our viewers that they should think about and then best ways they could get in touch with you and the Babson Diagnost ST. Yeah, well, if you want to learn more about it, you can just go to betterway.com.

[00:18:43] You know, a lot of information is there. We're very transparent about, you know, all the data. And you can see the full, you know, menu of tests. So, you know, it's all there for everybody to see, patients and, you know, and providers alike. As I mentioned, you know, we have been engaged with health systems, large health systems, and other providers and, you know, basically sharing our technology with them

[00:19:09] and moving very rapidly towards pilots, which we'll be announcing, I would say, probably beginning in the next quarter. In fact, I'm quite certain of it. But, you know, if there are any providers out there who want to learn more, you know, we're always happy to have those conversations and excited to have those conversations. You know, I mean, I really feel good about being able to tell the story and explain the benefits of the service, again, to all constituencies,

[00:19:39] to patients, to providers, you know, as well as to payers. And we're making progress there as well. So, you know, if you want to learn more, you know, reach out to me. You have my contact information, web.golincoln at babsondx.com. And, you know, let's talk. I love it. I love it. Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, webgolincoln.

[00:20:04] He is the president of Babson Diagnostics, giving us the latest update on Better Way. In the show notes, you'll find all the ways to get in touch with him and the team, so make sure you do that. Share this interview with your friends. If you're a provider looking for a better way, it exists, and it's actually called that. So check it out in the show notes. Make contact. That's why we do these types of things. Until next time, we'll see you soon. And, Webb, thanks for being with us again. Yeah, Tal. It's always a pleasure. Always a pleasure.