The Positioning Compass: Guiding Pharma Brands from Pipeline to Market with Natalie Thovmasian, Vice President, and Liv Yates, Managing Consultant, at Lumanity

[00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket. I'm so excited to be hosting another episode with the outstanding leaders at Lumanity. Today's topic we're going to be covering is going to be super interesting to all you pharma leaders. It's the positioning compass, navigating your brand's life cycle. And for today's episode, I have Liv Yates and Natalie Thovmasian with us. Natalie is the VP at Lumanity and Liv is the VP of Lumanity.

[00:00:35] And we're both very focused on brand positioning. Natalie being focused on early positioning, Liv being focused on launch and in-market. We're going to have the whole cycle covered here. So with that introduction, I want to welcome both of you to the podcast, Liv and Natalie. Thanks for joining. Thanks for having us all. Thanks, so much. It's such a pleasure.

[00:00:58] So look, we've been having a lot of conversations from asset launches to how to best succeed in market. And brand is one of those, brand positioning is one of those really important topics. So to start, what does brand positioning truly mean from Lumanity's perspective? And why is it so fundamental for pharma's asset success?

[00:01:19] So to kick this off, I think I have a recent example of a conversation. Recently got connected with a couple of individuals who are leading the development of an antibody drug conjugate in the prostate cancer space.

[00:01:34] And we started having an interesting discussion about how the treatment landscape is changing, the role of the treater and who is the treater at different stages in the patient journey is changing. Historically, it's been when patients move to chemotherapy, that's when they really need to engage an oncologist and transition away from their urologist.

[00:01:53] But an antibody drug conjugate being chemo conjugated to an antibody is sort of this interesting molecule. And people I were talking to had this interesting comment and they said, it will be really interesting to see how treaters position this asset and how they think about using it.

[00:02:11] And I paused just because that's not something they have to leave up to chance. And really, that's really what positioning is. It's not just letting the asset play out and see what happens, but making a more, having influence from an earlier stage to try to determine how that asset is viewed in the market and how it's used.

[00:02:34] And that's really a lot of what we're used. And that's really a lot of what we do at Lumanity when we're thinking about positioning. It's helping define and shape that from early on and carrying it through up to launch and afterwards. Yeah, just building on what Natalie just said, if you think of it and you mentioned the strategic compass, but it's not a map. It's really the way that you would guide so much of your brand ambition, your strategic decisions.

[00:03:01] Who's the brand for? Where should it be used? What promise does it deliver? And importantly, how do we set it aside from what's already out there? What makes it different?

[00:03:15] And one way that we think about it at Humanity is the right positioning must generate desire. And we love acronyms, of course, but is it distinct, emotive, single-minded, insight-led versus asset-led, but also resonant with whatever stakeholders it is that you're working with?

[00:03:38] Some really great thoughts there to kick us off, Liv and Natalie. And I love it. It doesn't have to be left to chance. It is in our hands to guide it. How do you think about positioning before clinical data exists? So this is really the sweet spot, the space that I love to play in. Assets are even, you haven't even entered the clinic. You're just anticipating what an agent could be in the future.

[00:04:06] And certainly not all companies do this, but when we work together, what we really encourage them to do from an early point on before clinical development is start with an early product TPP, target product profile, where you really define and set stringent criteria. Like you have the chance to set the bar as high as you want to be as innovative and influential as you want.

[00:04:29] So here is where we're looking for trying to help teams articulate what they think this agent could do and what it could be in terms of the level of improvement and across which metrics. Is it safety? Is it efficacy? What piece of efficacy? Is it both? Is it dosing? Is it something else?

[00:04:48] It's really trying to think about that full arc of value from early on and setting that high bar for yourself and really starting to keep in mind what is impactful to the people who will be using this agent in the future. And at this early stage, it's really important that this isn't just a research exercise, something done in a vacuum, but already at this early stage, it really needs to be more like a team sport involving cross-functional input, commercial medical, patient,

[00:05:18] and payer thinking about together. How are you grounding the positioning so that you're collectively working toward an asset that will have impact in a future market? Yeah, thanks, Natalie. I love it. It's about setting the vision. It's about getting the team together and having everybody pitch in to get together to that end goal where that future market could be.

[00:05:44] And Liv, I'm so sorry you were about to chime in, but I wanted to reiterate the understanding that Natalie has left us with. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it was really just to absolutely echo everything she said. It is a full team effort. It has to be about co-creation, even that step beyond input, because I think when people feel involved and there's that sort of collective sense of ownership,

[00:06:09] you really get not only the diverse perspectives and the emotional connection that there needs to be to positioning, even at that early stage, but it really helps build that accountability for that and buy-in more broadly. So that has to be at every stage of the life cycle, whether it's geographic sort of co-creation with key markets, whether it's different functions, it's super important that it's a collective effort.

[00:06:39] Really great. And so it's really looking at this early positioning. If we can go back to that, how do you build a strong positioning for pre-launch assets when data is still emerging and future markets maybe years away? Yeah, it's a great question. It's something a lot of people can get hung up on because I think in the absence of clinical data,

[00:07:02] sort of what's the point or what can you even say? But this is where you're starting to set that North Star, that compass. And there is a very clear starting point. And we always like to start with real world insights, customer needs, really thinking about what would be meaningful to the market, even before you actually have data. And an important piece to keep in mind is that you need to think about the behaviors in the future.

[00:07:32] So you're planning for an asset that might not hit the market for five or seven or more years from now. And you need to have a mindset where you're anticipating all of the things that may be coming in the market, trends, how is the space shifting? What will the space look like in the future? And make sure you're understanding the unmet needs as you think they will exist in the future.

[00:07:56] And then establishing a positioning that is highly relevant in that future market. This is where we do a lot of things. We work in collaboration with some of our insights colleagues who are really behavioral science experts, digging into drivers of behaviors. And it's really a really deep learning process at this stage. I think I work less in that space.

[00:08:20] I tend to work later on, but I think it's still really important that you have that essence of the single-minded idea from as early on as possible. If you think about it, you want the positioning to almost be a mental shortcut to your product. So think about a word association. Let's do it again.

[00:08:43] So if I say a word, what I'd like you to do, Saul or Natalie, is say a word back to me. So I'm going to say a brand and I want you to, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? So I say Red Bull. Give me wings. I say Aldi. Cheap. Cheap. Yeah. Low car. Exactly.

[00:09:11] And if you do it in the reverse direction, so you say spreadsheets. Excel. Yeah. Exactly. So this is wrinkles, Botox. There are lots of different mental shortcuts, but this is what we want to build, even right from the beginning. So it's absolutely right. It has to be grounded in something that's needed by the customer. But it also, it's such an iterative process.

[00:09:38] We use lots of exercises where we think about solving healthcare professional challenges or positioning maps. There's lots of ways to go about it, but I think finding that sort of clarity is the end goal, ultimately. Yeah.

[00:09:59] And I would agree the single mindset is so important because it's easy to think that, again, the data will speak for itself when it eventually comes out. And time and time again, we see this where perhaps, yes, if you dig into the data, there is this distinction that exists.

[00:10:18] But if you haven't built the positioning and this aura around your product, all of that doesn't matter necessarily to the patient or to the healthcare provider. There's so much data everywhere. That's why you need the positioning to really stand out and set you apart. I agree. Yeah, that's so interesting. I love that. The data alone is not going to do the work. You've got to do the positioning.

[00:10:46] I love that word game was a lot of fun, but a great example of how one word could make you or potentially break you. So we've talked about the beginning process. And so what triggers an in-market brand to evolve its positioning? And how does that process differ from a launch? I think ideally, you want to remain consistent with your positioning. That threat should ideally be there for the life cycle of the product.

[00:11:15] But that doesn't mean that it's static. You want that mind connection that we just spoke about. You think of Johnson's baby shampoo, like 70 years apparently of no more tears. It's been consistent through, but it doesn't mean that they haven't evolved elements of that.

[00:12:03] Now, fast forward more years than we like to think about, but their positioning now is very clearly the backbone of therapy. That has shifted because there's been a dramatic shift in the way that oncology patients are surviving and thriving, partly because of the introduction of the Keytruda and others. So there are times where it needs to be significantly shifted.

[00:12:30] The other point is when new competition or maybe new classes, you have to renew what's differentiating about our positioning. Because if you were first in class, that may be one way to look at it. But, you know, you may want to update the proof, update the expression.

[00:12:52] You don't want to reintroduce it completely, but you may need to just tweak that to remain differentiated in the minds of healthcare professionals. Yeah, Liv, that's really interesting. And I like this idea of from breakthrough to backbone. Yeah. And so this evolution and how the brand has had to evolve, but being mindful of those things. Natalie, you were going to chime in. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:19] And it just goes back to what Liv mentioned at the beginning with the desire framework. That can be a really helpful tool to check in how the positioning is doing. So again, like over time, as new competitors come in, as more data emerges, think about like, are we still as distinct as we want to be emotive, single-minded? Are we getting like a mixed message? Do we need to like have a core message back in the spotlight?

[00:13:47] Insight-led, do we have the latest insights? And also resonance, does it still resonate? And that's something you can test as well. And the importance of continuing to stay on top of the perception of your positioning all throughout the product life cycle. And that's definitely something we do and we help clients with to stay on top of the latest understanding of their positioning. Yeah. And you can get... No, really good point.

[00:14:14] The positioning can be watered down over time, particularly if you haven't got a clear, global, united positioning. There can be mixed messages coming through. So sometimes it's a case of just let's just take a step back, take a look at how clear is it to our customers. Totally. Totally. And the other thing that I'll add here, just love the frameworks, the direction we're going with the conversation, but also we get too close to our products sometimes.

[00:14:43] And so having a partner like Lumanity to come in and help you take a different look at your brand really does help in a big way. So certainly a call out to you and the team, Natalie, and Liv for the work that you guys do every day for brands out there. What are the key takeaways for our listeners to master brand positioning? If we were to leave folks with just one last thing, what would you leave them with? Ruthless prioritizing.

[00:15:12] We've mentioned it several times, but it really do need. So many companies that we work with want to try and have everything in their positioning and we lose the single mindedness. I've recently had some work that are my teeth. So I'm looking for a toothpaste. I've got like, I've been whitening my teeth and they're really sore. I just want something that's going to work for sensitive teeth. I don't need brightening.

[00:15:41] I'm doing brightening. I don't need gun protection, tar to control, fresh breath. 24, I just want a sensor dime is what I want. It's the same thing. If we try and be everything to everyone, it just doesn't support that differentiation that we're looking for. And the other one is an avoid, which is asset first. So failing to actually focus on what the customer is telling us and what the unmet needs are.

[00:16:09] Versus having a product with a particular feature that we just decide is the hook. Totally agree. Yeah. And related to that, I would just reiterate again the importance of not thinking or deceiving yourself that the data will speak for itself.

[00:16:27] If you want to stand out in a crowded or competitive market, it's really important that you're focusing on establishing yourself in terms of what do you mean for the patients and the caregivers and healthcare providers. More than just numbers and metrics, but what's the impact on their real life. And again, just that positioning isn't about just waiting to see where the asset lands.

[00:16:53] It's really about shaping and driving and making sure you're even setting up your clinical development or your marketing or all that goes along with it in order to make sure that the positioning pulls through. And it's felt by all of those who are receiving your product. That's fantastic, guys. What a great way to close up here with some practical tips on what we should keep in mind.

[00:17:17] For everybody out there, thanks for tuning in to this episode around your brand's life cycle, how to navigate it, positioning, whether it's early stage or in the middle of the cycle. If you guys want to learn more, check out the show notes where we'll leave ways to get in touch with Liv and Natalie, as well as the Lumanity team. Thank you guys for tuning in. And Liv, Natalie, thank you guys so much for joining us today. Thanks all. Great talking with you. Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you.