The Truth About Health Insurance: Frank Lobb Exposes the System with Frank Lobb, engineer, consultant, and author

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[00:00:29] Welcome to the Chalk Talk Jim podcast, where we explore insights into healthcare that help uncover new opportunities for growth and success. I'm your host, Jim Jordan. Today, I'm excited to welcome Frank Lobb to our show. Frank's an engineer, a consultant, and an author who has spent years investigating the hidden realities of the healthcare insurance system.

[00:00:55] His background is environmental law and regulatory compliance, which gave him a unique ability to dissect complex contracts in healthcare. And what he discovered about provider agreements and insurance policies might surprise you. After experiencing a personal loss due to insurance denials, Frank set out to expose how the system really works. His book, The Big Lie in My Healthcare Bill reveals why what we call health insurance isn't actually insurance at all.

[00:01:24] And how hidden provider contracts, Medicare Advantage plans, and billing practices leave patients vulnerable. In this episode, we break down why insurance companies have the power to deny payment, how provider agreements control what care you do receive, and what can you do to protect yourself from unexpected medical bills. So, Frank, tell me and the listeners a little bit more about yourself and how you got here.

[00:01:52] So I generally just start out as give me a name, tell me your background and how you got here to write this book. Let me give you a little bit of my background. I've done a lot of different things in my life. But a great deal toward the end of my life was I was a consultant in the environmental law area. And I consulted across the country in the most complex of the big permits and so forth in Clean Air Act.

[00:02:18] And I was down in Washington head to head with Morgan Lewis and Bacchius in legal fights and so forth. And so there's a side of me that's at least a fairly decent attorney, although that's not what I am. I'm an engineer. And I look at the law differently. The head of Morgan Lewis and Bacchius at a meeting down in Washington said, Are you an attorney? Are you an attorney? And he was so mad he goes, he was smitting. And I said, No, Bill, I'm not, but I can read the law just as well as you do.

[00:02:47] And my view has been, let's understand it. Let's not play games with words and so forth. And that's what I've done with the health insurance area. I was hurt very badly in that I lost somebody from a family. I felt that I was betrayed by my insurance. And I've taken the time to take the system apart and particularly down to the provider agreements contracts

[00:03:12] that are between the insurance industry and the in-network providers. Those are contracts you cannot see. But because I had spent so much time in the legal interface on the Clean Air Act and regulatory world, I was able to get access. So I read those agreements and I have the experience to understand them. And what I'd really like to do is share with you and your audience what they really need in terms of the care

[00:03:42] and the coverage that we're owed but never told. That's great. So why don't we start out with what people think their insurance is and then what it really is? I think that's an interesting pre-conversation we had that just to make sure everyone's on the same page. That's an easy one. I've been there so often. We think it's insurance. And we're very carefully led there.

[00:04:08] And I could show you a lot of examples where an attorney has obviously taken it and he's called it a plan, but he's labeled it insurance so that, yes, he can claim he called it a plan. But on the other hand, he can look to the language. If you look at the language, the average person is going to come away and believe it's insurance. The name of the company is insurance and states have that right. So we're led there, but it is definitely not insurance.

[00:04:37] Insurance, I'll quote a judge. He said, until you talk to me, I thought it was insurance. I'll quote the, oh, come on, the Heritage Foundation. It's not insurance like other insurances. And the reason it's not is because there isn't a contract. If you go to the law says to have insurance, you need a signed contract between you and the insurer. And there is no contract. That is interesting.

[00:05:07] What you have is membership in a plan and you do not own the plan. Generally, the employer owns it. And I'll talk a little bit about that if you want. But you have no rights if you don't have ownership. Now, if you have insurance, you own what's on that contract. It's enforceable. You can go into court and the coverage is structured.

[00:05:35] If your house burns down in your health or your fire insurance, it tells you exactly what you are due in the way of coverage. You have nothing like that in health insurance. And it gets worse because the only contract that exists is between the insurer and the provider. And they're identical across the country. They're identical. And what they say is it's not insurance.

[00:06:04] And the significance of that is we think it is. So we think we have the rights and the coverage that normal insurers would have. But what we really are faced with is a situation where these contracts, and again, they're similar, not similar, they're identical across the country, state that the provider, the network provider agrees to provide all the necessary health care your doctor says you need.

[00:06:33] And then the insurance company gets the right to decide whether they want to pay for it, including up to zero. And if they want to pay for it, then they also require the provider to agree that in no circumstances will the patient be billed.

[00:06:54] So if the insurer decides not to pay for something, the provider is required contractually to eat the cost. They don't tell you that. Well, I think we got educated on that with the CEO of the health care plan that was murdered. That part of the stories that came out is that physicians rode 90, 120 days. They just stopped paying at some point in time. I believe that was the New York Times article.

[00:07:21] So they do have that power and physicians were going in that article into not quite bankruptcy, but financial issues where they couldn't fund their own practices. Well, it's a huge point because what initially. If you went back 30, 40 years ago. Health care was health insurance was all the care you needed for a small monthly payment.

[00:07:49] And then Congress got upset about how much money we were spending on health care. And they asked in those days, they were all HMOs to use their power in the marketplace to bring down the cost of health care. So they began rationing health care. They began denying coverage. And there was a big HMO backlash and so forth.

[00:08:14] And about that time, they formalized these contracts or arrangements that I've mentioned. And the states got involved because it was difficult enough on an insurance standpoint and from a payment point in the market and so forth. They had to do something. So they standardized the contracts across the country. And the providers, if you remember then, providers were small. The hospitals were individual hospitals. Doctors were individual doctors.

[00:08:44] So they had no power when it came to, say, market power compared to the big insurance companies. And in my area, what's generally referred to is the hospitals here get something like 70% of their income from the largest insurance company in the area. So they had a lot of market power.

[00:09:07] And they forced the hospitals and the doctors to accept these contracts where they would generally pay for insurance or pay for the care that somebody needed. But on the other hand, if they elected not to pay, they don't pay. Now, what makes it particularly egregious and the reason I got involved in all this is they don't just deny the payment from the insurer.

[00:09:33] They deny all payment because the language of these contracts says that the individual provider, hospital or doctor cannot bill or accept. So in my case years ago, when I tried to pay for my wife's health care, they couldn't bill me. Nor could they accept. And if you I'm not an easy person to bulldoze through.

[00:10:02] And I fought that tooth and nail. It took me years to understand where they were coming from and how they had the power to deny me the right to pay for health care in an open market. Mm hmm. But they're contractually barred from accepting the money and even billing for it. So there are certain reimbursement components that it's illegal for physicians to accept payment from a different. You used the word illegal. And I have to.

[00:10:30] One of the things I think you and I could agree on. It's a contractual law is one thing. Criminal law is something else. So I think on part. There's a very physicians in part B and looking at part A codes, there's some pretty. Clear laws there for Medicare that what is illegal and illegal, I thought. Did I not understand that correctly? I think we need to separate our conversation. OK. Yeah, please.

[00:11:00] Medicare is an entirely different situation. OK. But it's in law. Mm hmm. And I'll give you an example just second. Most of the insurance in the United States is private because Medicare Advantage is private. And when you add the private sector that is provided by employers to Medicare Advantage, it's the majority of insurance in the country. But it's all under these same provider agreements because everything has to be a network.

[00:11:30] And once you go outside of your network, it's buyer beware because you have no structure at all. So for our seniors that think they're covered by Medicare and then they get the adjunctal plan is actually not part of the government plan. It's private insurance. Are you saying Medicare Advantage or Medicare Advantage? Medicare Advantage is simply the government buying the same policy.

[00:11:58] Same plan that you get from your employer, except the government's paying for it instead of your employer. And the reason you can make that decision or that analysis, there is only one provider agreement with, say, a major hospital for Blue Cross. Get a little specific. Yeah. Cross has an agreement with Penn Medicine, the big hospital in Philadelphia. They don't have a separate contract for every plan.

[00:12:28] And I've asked about Medicare Advantage and, boy, they can't get away from me fast enough. Because if you look at the language in these provider agreements, it's so general. You cannot separate plan. You can't separate a PPO from an HMO. The language doesn't allow it. And it makes a lot of sense. You might say, well, why? Well, fine. They got there before all these other plans existed and they didn't make provisions for it.

[00:12:58] It would cost millions and millions of dollars to go back and renegotiate all these things. And they all have to be state approved. And you would open up these issues that we're going to talk about that are basically fraud to open discussion in the public. Nobody wants to do that. So you have this single contract that's flexible enough to cover all the different plans. But you and I are told the plans are different. I'll give you an example.

[00:13:26] I attended a Medicare Advantage presentation a couple of weeks ago. And I was quiet for about 40 minutes in the conversation. And I finally had to say something. I said, I have a question. I said, you keep talking about this as if it's Medicare. And it's not. It's private insurance and you have to get your care in network. And I said, the other thing that bothers me is under Medicare, my coverage is guaranteed. It's in law.

[00:13:57] On the Medicare Advantage side, it's private. And the private insurer is free to deny coverage whenever he wants, he or she wants or it wants. And the guy said, he blew me out of the water. He said, well, you're right, but we have other advantages. Yeah, a woman next to me put her elbow on my ribs and said, I thought that's what insurance was for.

[00:14:22] So tell the listeners the book you wrote and give us a sense of the topics that are in the book. So I do, by the way, I only do audio so they won't see that picture. So just let me move on. I apologize. I should have said that up front. The book is The Big Lie in My Health Care Bill. And the subtitle is Why I Don't Owe What My Insurer Fails to Pay. Because it's the center of what's wrong.

[00:14:53] You are led to believe that they can deny care whenever they want and that, I'm sorry, coverage whenever they want. And whatever they don't pay, you have to pay. It's not true. It simply isn't true. And if you ask a couple of questions off of that premise, the bill goes away. Because not only isn't it true they can't afford to defend it. Because it's hard contractual language.

[00:15:21] If you look at those contracts, they don't leave any room for interpretation. So the contracts basically say, if I go to my doctor and we agree to a precise and a procedure and he does the procedure and the insurance company doesn't pay them what they agreed to, that's not my issue? The issue is set up for almost anything that's worth getting. You have to pre-approval.

[00:15:48] And if they deny approval, the provider or the hospital is stuck in the position of knowing up front they're not going to get paid. So in the case of the subject matter you and I were talking about regarding surgery I had on my wrist, they got pre-approval for an amount. They said to me, if you pay cash, you'll get a 5% discount on the difference, which I did. And then they came back and charged me a different amount. What's that? Yeah.

[00:16:18] It's basically, okay, you got this under a private plan. If you read the book and go to the back and look at the contract, I have a contract in there and they're all identical. I've moved this just enough so that nobody can claim I copied their contract because the states have made them proprietary confidential documents. So you're not allowed to see them. By the way, they're third party. We are third parties in those contracts.

[00:16:45] And if you go anywhere else in the law and you're a third party and want to see the portion of the contract that applies to you, the courts will give it to you, but not here. Anyway, there's one in the back of the book. And the point is, if you raise the issue that you can't be billed, it goes away. I've done it too many times for my own family. I did it recently. It was Medicare, but they breached the law in Medicare. They charged me. I had a small procedure. It was actually in the operating room.

[00:17:14] They came in with a credit card machine and wanted $3,000. I needed the operation, so I gave them a card, got the operation, but it came out and appealed it immediately and called my credit card company and stopped it. And I got the $3,000 back immediately. And the surgery unit did not once try to justify the bill.

[00:17:38] However, they wrote me two invitations to come back for a second procedure, which I went somewhere else, and they sent me a birthday card. Now, think about that. I didn't stick them for $3,000. I made them adhere to their own provisions. Okay? That's all I did. And for that, they gave me the $3,000 back and never once questioned it or tried to improve it.

[00:18:04] And I've had that experience in the private sector just as well because the provisions I'm talking about in the book are so clear. They're not defensible. You don't want to even try to defense it. My good attorney friend says it's just cheaper to eat it, and they dumped the bill. So I read a component of your book that talked about the shift from best possible outcome to cheapest legally acceptable outcome. You didn't use those words exactly.

[00:18:34] Help me out there. So insurance companies now determine the care based on cost, not medical necessity, despite laws that still guarantee proper coverage. So there was a discussion in some articles that I saw from you that talked about the subtle line between best possible outcome and cheapest legally acceptable outcome. And I think it was associated with statistics, meaning that on average, this is the best procedure, even if you needed something special.

[00:19:02] The health insurance companies are like any other company. And I've consulted or worked for a number of them. And in the wardroom, we're there to make money. Okay? So is the insurance industry. And every delay of payment or denial of payment is money in the bank. A dollar delayed is a dollar made. Okay?

[00:19:26] So they're going to just instinctively try to delay payments, approvals and payments, and deny payments wherever they can. And I don't fault that, except they're dishonest in how they do it. And it's a great advantage in a sense. Let me come back in another way. Okay. They have no legal right to decide the care you or I need. Only your doctor, your attending doctor can make that decision.

[00:19:55] That's the law. Okay? So they can't touch that with a 10-foot pole without getting liability. So they don't deny care. They deny all payment. In other words, the insurer won't pay for it. And I'm not allowed to pay for it. So the doctor knows up front, he's not going to get some partial payment. He's not going to get any payment because he can't bill for it.

[00:20:25] So here's the story. Today, the reimbursement zones are called MAC. Back when I owned a durable medical equipment company, they were fiduciaries and intermediaries. And so the government deploys its process through the bigger insurance companies by zone and all that. So I would get to the end of a quarter and I would find all of a sudden that my reimbursement was getting denied.

[00:20:52] So to your point by law, if I decide that I'm going to accept the Medicare rate when someone walks in with Medicare and they say, I'm qualified for this wheelchair or walker or scooter or chair or whatever, ostomy bag, whatever it was. I had a rate and they just would take it, give me their details and walk away. And so it was my, then I would bill obviously the central authorities.

[00:21:19] And so what I started to notice is at the end of a quarter, all of a sudden things were getting denied. And so it took me several months to figure this out. But what was happening, it was the intermediary trying to manage their cash flow and denying things. And at the same time, I had to intervene with my reimbursement people because they thought they did something wrong. And their motivation would be to start changing the codes, which would open me up to getting fraud.

[00:21:48] And so it struck me that as I'm listening to your story, that it's not just doctors that have these issues. It's retail, it's anywhere that can accept different policies and different issues. So I appreciate that illumination. When I was looking at your background prior to the podcast, I was trying to figure out where we could sort of come together and I could help the audience that you have. And I'm going to give you an example.

[00:22:12] We had a situation, my wife and I own a business, and we had a situation develop that I saw coming and I tried to stop it and it failed. It got a little messier than that. But anyway, I kind of got overruled and it blew up. Okay, now we'll pat it down. But the reason I mentioned it is you're far better off to solve a problem in front than have to patch the hole after it blows up. Yeah.

[00:22:40] The facts in this book are real. If they're not, look, I've been around and I've argued this in Washington. I've been in front of the subcommittee of health down in Washington. And I knew the chair and so forth. And I've talked to enough people that if I'm wrong, they'd have told me a long time ago. So could you share the chapter titles in your book? Would you mind sharing that just verbally? Do you want now?

[00:23:10] The chapter titles in your book? Well, a few actually. But basically, I've got it broken up in major sections. And I say, setting the stage for publishing, for pushing back towards the how and why of the fraud. And then the plan that they promote. And then a sex chapter, the plan that they hide. And all the issues.

[00:23:38] It's not your plan, not insurance, not even your doctor. The doctor works for the hospital or the insurance company. Two definitions of coverage. Coverage when you sell it and when they turn you down. Well, no, it isn't covered. That's not similar to any other informed true insurance. The worthiness of plan description. The little bullshir you get. Last year it was 80% coverage for this and now it's 75. That's worthless.

[00:24:08] You can't take that into a court of law. Hidden pricing, you're not really allowed to see the price. I don't even know what the pricing means. Because the contracts are so complex. And the coding with 77,000 codes. Which price? What are we talking about? It's way over the head of the average person. Restrictions in emergency care, all too real rationing. The secret provider agreements.

[00:24:36] You can see the third party rights in any contract except a healthcare contract. No help available. Half of the system anymore, basically half of the private systems are self-funded. Now, why are they self-funded? Because it takes them out of the regulatory range. In other words, if it's a plan that's owned by an insurance company, it's under state law.

[00:25:06] If it's a self-funded plan, it falls under ERISA and federal law. And the difference is the states at least have personnel structure organization to enforce the plans and to help you. There isn't anybody in the federal world that you can call, get on the phone and ask for help. Now, what else? HMO, PPO, HB, all the different acronyms.

[00:25:34] They're all the same. Because they come in under the same single contract. So it's smoke, care and coverage even when they say no. I explained this to an attorney in the back of a courtroom. And he had apoplexy. I told you that I got into this because I was unable to take care of my wife and she died. And I said, well, I sued for years. And at the very end, a light came off in my head.

[00:26:01] And I said to the attorney from the other side, from the insurance industry, I said, now I understand. And how I made a mistake I made. I should have said that I would pay for it. And they would refuse. And then I'd have to remind them that the state law demands that if a care is available and there's an offer to pay, they must provide it under the terms of their license.

[00:26:28] And so I would have gotten either the license or I'd have gotten the care. And they'd have given it to me. And they'd have made me sign a little statement that I agree to pay whatever isn't covered. And I'd have gotten the care. And then I'd gotten the bill. And I'd have taken the bill with a red pen and I'd have written across it. And he said, this is an unenforceable debt. Don't bother me again. And it is over. And he looked at me and he said, you have to get out of this suit.

[00:26:56] And what he was telling me is they were coming after me with a meat axe. Because I was in the heart of their business model and in a federal court. And money has power. And I'm just a little guy. So anyway, the way it worked out is I had a federal judge tell me to go away. And money won.

[00:27:21] But what I did do is I got to look at all of the paperwork and to actually put the system together. And then in this book, given the individual the opportunity to understand the issue. And then use the system as it currently exists to get a fair bill. Well, first of all, to get the care that their doctor says they need and then get a fair bill.

[00:27:47] So basically your premise is know the system so you can use the system. I like the terminology. I may steal it. Please do. And later on you start. So you talk about these hidden practices. But later on you in some of the notes that you sent me, you talked about how you think. I think AI and health care from the ability to understand patients better and doctors and legal accountability and understanding these things could be beneficial. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

[00:28:15] Well, a little bit because the issue is we refuse to look at the problem in real terms. You know, we have decided to have a private health insurance system. And I also have a degree in economics. And if I had told my old professor in economics that we were going to turn loose a company in a monopoly, because all of the regions are regional monopolies for insurance.

[00:28:45] If I had told my old professor in economics, I would have told me we're crazy. Inelastic being competition and price doesn't really affect sales. Elastic, if you raise the price, sales go down or volume goes down. In an elastic market, you can raise price pretty much all you want. Nothing happens. People still need it.

[00:29:12] And so economic theory says if you have a monopoly to turn loose in an inelastic market, you get exactly what we have. And what we talk about, you hear everybody, well, what we need is more efficiency. Let's look at efficiency carefully. Efficiency is simply getting more for the dollars that you spend. Okay. Well, we know price is going up in health care. That's a 30, 40 year trend.

[00:29:42] So mathematically, the only way with price going up, we can get higher efficiency in health care is for you, me and your listeners to get less health care faster than the rising cost of price. That's a mathematical reality. That's a mathematical reality. And if you look at where we're going, it takes three weeks to see a doctor. My doctor, a number of years ago, was what?

[00:30:12] He was a, he was my family doctor, my personal doctor. Today, he's a PCP. And a PCP is only supposed to help you from getting sick and then treat you for the most minor health care problems. He has no authority to put you in the hospital. And he can't follow you into the hospital. And so if you have to go to the hospital now, you have to go to the emergency room.

[00:30:42] And your doctor can't follow you, nor can he call ahead and say, admit Charlie. So you have to get in line in the emergency room, who we were told just a few years ago was the absolute worst way to go to a hospital because it's the most expensive and most inefficient use of health care. But now that's the only way you and I can get in the hospital unless it's routinely scheduled surgery. Yeah, I was going to say it's scheduled.

[00:31:12] So it's interesting. So maybe a little history for the audience and I'm sure you know this, but please correct me. So when I was a kid, my grandmother lived with us and Dr. Wally would come to the house and take care of her. Now she was in her 80s at that time. And so later on, I go into health care. And what I realized is from the perspective of history, you sent your family member to the hospital when you couldn't take care of them at home.

[00:31:36] And so when that moment happened to a hospital, the doctors became sales reps for all intents and purposes. And this is before the 70s. And once we started Medicare and Medicaid in the mid 60s, the AMA started getting strength. Prices started going up, more people getting treated.

[00:31:59] And when we got into the health care reform period of time, we started to separate out the hospital systems and the private practice doctors more in line with the way that you're talking today. And so I always talk about the concept of outcomes versus efficiency, because I think you bring a because efficiency is all about time zone to write one year or six months.

[00:32:23] Outcomes to me is adequate availability, the lowest absolute cost and the best quality. And when you look at the concept of measuring outcomes, sometimes some of these definitions of the best outcomes are five or six year studies, right? Doing something today that could be costly could save you money later. And prevention today that doesn't seem efficient could save you money later. So I think we also don't really have the right time horizons.

[00:32:49] And as a product manager for medical devices and distribution companies and healthcare companies, I would even say even my education was how much can I save you in the cath lab? Not how much am I saving a hard person over the next 20 years? And so I think we also don't know the definitions that the targets were going after even define what efficiency is. Well, they got to remember, too, efficiency is turned on the country and not on you. Yes.

[00:33:16] So, yeah, real big numbers and a relative. My wife's English and her uncle was over here and he said, we have a great system. But boy, if you fall through the cracks, it's a long fall. Yes. And boy, was he ever right. And the system's getting worse. I sound like I'm just all doom and gloom. I'm not. Because every doctor I've ever associated with liked exactly what I'm saying.

[00:33:44] They do not like this system. We're supposed to lose, what, 20% of our doctors over the next 10 years from burnout? One of the highest suicide rates. Yeah. It's terrible. Yeah. But we are so locked into this private insurance that is a monopoly in an inelastic market making lots of money. Well, and the private insurance started after World War II, right? It was an incentive to get to hire people at the time.

[00:34:14] We've lost sight of the real issue. Yeah. And we're certainly not supporting our doctors. No. Honestly, never had a doctor that I've talked to many about this in my own personal doctors that hasn't supported me. Basically, go get them. I mean, these are some of the best doctors, heart doctors. I don't have my wife had a heart problem. We were in time medicine. Some of the biggest doctors you could imagine nationally ranked. And they agree with everything I'm saying.

[00:34:44] And they hate it. But they have no power. My own doctor of 30 years, a good friend died because they ever heard the terms treated and streeted him? No. The credo inside emergency rooms anymore, not my words, their words, treat and street. They treat as little as you can and shove them out the door to go see their doctor.

[00:35:15] And you know the law when he says you have to stabilize. Yeah. Okay. So, Dave got treated and streeted and died a day later. And he had the same doctor I had and I saw my doctor and the first thing my doctor said was, what did Dave die of? Asking me. Yeah, right. Okay. Think about that. He was Dave's doctor for 30 years, but he asked me what Dave died of.

[00:35:43] And I said, he died because they didn't take the time to find out what was wrong with him and sent him out to see a doctor which he couldn't see for three weeks and he died the next day. He had to be airlifted into Penn Medicine. He said, my doctor sat down, put his hands in his head, face in his hands, close to tears and through a choked voice said, Frank, I remember a time when I could take care of my patients. They won't let me anymore.

[00:36:13] Now, all I'm saying is life is what it is. And we have to be willing to stand up and take a position and take care of ourselves. The days are over when you could assume the system will take care of us. The stuff's still there. We have the best technology in the world. And we can solve things. I'm sitting here, I have two false shoulders because I just wore them out. And I'm great. I can use my arms with no problem at all.

[00:36:42] But my dad suffered through a good bit of his life with very painful shoulders. I don't have that. So that's the miracle of the technology. And I believe we are a strong enough nation and certainly entrepreneurial enough that if we're honest about ourselves and we're honest about what the health care system is or how it's actually structured, and I see that in your bio, that we can fix it. And we can certainly help each other.

[00:37:11] Because the goal should be access to affordable health care, not how much money we have for the investment community. And I think it's all there. And what I say about my book, please read it. If you think I'm wrong, tell me. I'm willing to be wrong. I've been wrong before my life. I'll be wrong again, hopefully. But at least let's deal with it. Let's talk about it.

[00:37:41] So where can people get your book? Can they get it on Amazon? It's on Amazon. If you just look it up as the big lie in my health care bill, or you can go to simply kill a bill, K-I-L-L, small case, capital A, B-I-L-L.com, and it'll take you to the book. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience?

[00:38:08] I can come across as somebody really attacking the health care system. But I've been in boardrooms and in management long enough. I know how you get there. Nobody makes a bad decision or gets out to hurt anybody initially.

[00:38:23] You just slowly but surely get dragged along by the business, which is what's happened in our health care system to where it doesn't justify the killing of UnitedHealthcare's CEO, but it explains it.

[00:38:40] The problem is that there are what they call the rage and the glee that followed the killing is explainable by the number of people who have been absolutely butchered by the system. And it's not going to go away. Because they're going to have a trial. And unless the attorney is extremely negligent, they're going to go for the mental condition of the individual.

[00:39:10] It's a place of mind at the time of the shooting. Frame of mind. I'm humbling for words. And they'll have every right to get that into evidence. So it's going to be discussed. And I can't believe it's not going to be a major trial. And what we have is a large section of the economy, and it's growing, that's just getting left out. And they're angry. And they have a right to be. Very good. Thank you for sharing all this with us and your personal story.

[00:39:40] I really appreciate it. Thank you. And anything I can do, if you want to talk some more, please. And again, if somebody thinks something's wrong, please tell me. Well, we'll collect some questions and maybe do another one real soon. I'd be happy to do any questions. We'd love to do it. Okay? All right. Thanks for tuning in to the Chalk Talk Gym Podcast. For resources, show notes, and ways to get in touch, visit us at chalktalkgym.com.

[00:40:19] This podcast is produced by Outcomes Rocket, your healthcare-exclusive digital marketing agency. Outcomes Rocket exists to help healthcare organizations like yours to maximize their impact and accelerate growth. Visit outcomesrocket.com or text us at 312-224-9945.