Unlocking Clinical Data to Drive Smarter, More Affordable Healthcare with Dan Wilson, founder and CEO of Moxe Health

[00:00:00] Hey everybody and welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket.

[00:00:05] I'm super excited about this series that we're doing in collaboration with class to recognize

[00:00:12] the top achievers in health care technology.

[00:00:18] Class put together a list of top 20 emergency tech awards that they showcase that health.

[00:00:25] We were excited to meet many of the companies and really just wanted to collaborate in sharing

[00:00:30] the success and value that all of these companies are creating in the health care ecosystem.

[00:00:36] Join me in the series of interviews where we recognize the top 20 emergency tech awards.

[00:00:42] Hope you enjoy learning about them because you could both learn what to do for your

[00:00:46] business but also as a provider and a payer learn how to scale solutions within your

[00:00:53] organization.

[00:00:54] Thanks for joining me and I hope you enjoy this interview.

[00:00:57] We've been at conferences, HIMS, Vive and it's nice to be back at home chatting with today's

[00:01:04] outstanding leader.

[00:01:06] I want to introduce Dan Wilson to you all.

[00:01:08] He is the chief executive officer and founder of Moxie.

[00:01:14] Dan oversees their growing organization ensuring that their strategy aligns with

[00:01:18] their mission evolving needs to make change happen in the health care industry.

[00:01:24] Dan, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:25] So glad to have you here.

[00:01:26] Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity.

[00:01:27] Absolutely.

[00:01:28] So do we folks.

[00:01:29] Dan and I had a chance to meet at HIMS two HIMS ago.

[00:01:32] It was a short meet and greet so it's really great to be here with him for an extended

[00:01:36] interview.

[00:01:37] Dan, just anybody that hasn't had a chance to get to know you, tell them a little

[00:01:41] bit about yourself and also what got you into the health care business?

[00:01:45] Yeah, sure.

[00:01:46] So I grew up in the Detroit area which is where I am today and got my certain

[00:01:51] health care back in high school.

[00:01:53] I'm not sure that you think when you're sending those bills to your FSA administrator

[00:01:56] wondering why they got denied.

[00:01:58] That was me for a couple of summers and so I guess that was maybe my first

[00:02:02] foray into health care, but falling into it later was a bit more circumspect.

[00:02:08] So I ended up after school going out and moved to Wisconsin, worked at Epic.

[00:02:13] So got started on the provider medical record side of things and was there for about

[00:02:19] four years or so before leaving to start Moxie.

[00:02:22] So over the last decade or so I've spent time getting to understand

[00:02:27] different parts of the ecosystem.

[00:02:29] Today we work mostly with health plans and health systems so it's very much

[00:02:33] focused on how to help those two groups work more effectively together.

[00:02:37] I love it.

[00:02:38] I love it and had a chance to meet a lot of bright minds that spent

[00:02:42] that time in Wisconsin at Epic that have built interesting and

[00:02:46] super value added companies.

[00:02:48] And so definitely excited to dig into the findings that you've got going on at Moxie.

[00:02:54] So Dan, tell us about Moxie.

[00:02:56] What are you guys doing?

[00:02:57] How are you adding value to the health care ecosystem?

[00:02:59] I think you can think about where we sit from a couple of different vantage points.

[00:03:02] One would be interoperability.

[00:03:05] So we certainly fall into the camp of interoperability businesses in the sense

[00:03:09] that we're very focused on data exchange.

[00:03:12] What probably makes it a little bit different is that we're very focused

[00:03:15] on how to use data from medical records to support payment and operational use cases.

[00:03:21] If you think about most of the effort is focused on treatment use cases,

[00:03:25] provider to provider.

[00:03:27] That's really been the focus for a couple of decades.

[00:03:30] Our point of view is really coming in saying we digitized all this data

[00:03:34] and yet we still have not seen the kind of the return as taxpayers,

[00:03:41] as patients from all that energy.

[00:03:43] And really looking at how can we use the data in these EMRs to drive a more efficient

[00:03:49] by which we mean lower cost health care system.

[00:03:51] The North Star is affordability.

[00:03:53] It's very much how do we think about ringing out waste and excess costs?

[00:03:58] And the way that we're thinking about that, what we work on every day is,

[00:04:01] really how do you collapse cost out of the middle of the payer provider relationship?

[00:04:06] And how do we take a look at all the decisions that are being made countless times a day

[00:04:12] using frequently phone calls, the faxes, maybe claims data to try to adjudicate a decision?

[00:04:20] How do we take a look at each of those different jobs to be done

[00:04:23] and reimagine them around the use of EHR and clinical data, clinical workflow?

[00:04:29] And really what that creates then is a much more timely.

[00:04:34] So you can think about clinical data is available very quickly as opposed to claims data,

[00:04:38] which might have a long lag time.

[00:04:41] It's native to how a clinician is thinking and working.

[00:04:44] So all the friction we put on providers to translate what they're doing with a patient

[00:04:51] to fit a billing kind of protocol, we're trying to offload all of that complexity.

[00:04:59] Ultimately, it really is looking at how to make more effective decisions

[00:05:04] around how we pay for health care using clinical data.

[00:05:08] Love that. Yeah. And let's talk about applications, right?

[00:05:11] How is this being leveraged?

[00:05:13] Are we talking addressing approvals?

[00:05:16] Give us some examples of the applications.

[00:05:19] Yeah, I think that's another very good point.

[00:05:21] I think in the interoperability landscape, we don't talk about use cases nearly often enough.

[00:05:27] And so we are a very use case specific company.

[00:05:31] And the areas that were most focused would fall into risk management,

[00:05:36] so risk adjustment, underwriting, things that generally would allow you to quantify your risk.

[00:05:41] Quality program administration.

[00:05:43] So those could be things like HEDIS and STARS, it's formalized programs.

[00:05:46] But there's countless quality programs and measures that are run

[00:05:50] where clinical data is really critical to have a good accurate picture of what's going on.

[00:05:56] And then we do a lot around payment integrity, revenue integrity.

[00:05:59] So those would be two sides of the coin of effectively accurate payments,

[00:06:03] making sure that you've got a clear sense of what was done, how it should build, so forth.

[00:06:09] Beyond that, you mentioned utilization management.

[00:06:11] We do support UM authorization type workflows.

[00:06:16] Those are kind of other examples of kind of...

[00:06:19] We would almost put it...

[00:06:21] We think about it in the same lens of kind of the payment revenue integrity.

[00:06:24] It's an accurate payment question.

[00:06:25] It's kind of an access, and can you get people into the right program?

[00:06:28] Are they supposed to have that intervention?

[00:06:31] And so there are really programs around quantifying risk

[00:06:35] and then intervening to buy down risk.

[00:06:37] And we would support kind of use cases within each of those broad buckets.

[00:06:42] And so really what we're doing is we're going to health plans

[00:06:46] and looking at all the different places that today

[00:06:50] they're looking to use clinical data in their kind of core operations.

[00:06:55] And then we're giving them a much more efficient way to do that.

[00:06:57] And then at the same time, we're going to provider organizations

[00:07:01] and saying, look, the amount of data that you're needing to share with health plans

[00:07:05] is only increasing.

[00:07:06] It's relevant across all these different use cases.

[00:07:09] There are very few tools to help you manage that.

[00:07:12] You want to have access control logic running.

[00:07:15] You want to understand where data is going.

[00:07:17] You look at all of the different compliance requirements, regulatory requirements,

[00:07:22] security from a data breach and understanding where your data is actually being sent.

[00:07:28] All of those are different requirements that you as a health system or provider organization

[00:07:33] have to be monitoring and worried about.

[00:07:36] We give them software to help them do that without additional staff.

[00:07:41] And in fact, many cases are able to reappropriate staff to other places.

[00:07:46] So it really is a look at how we can create value to both the payer and the provider

[00:07:52] through the use of this software around these very specific programs.

[00:07:56] That's really great, Dan.

[00:07:57] Appreciate the use cases.

[00:07:58] That helps a lot, right?

[00:07:59] It helps put a good understanding around how these could be leveraged, your platform.

[00:08:05] And then the other thing that I was curious about is,

[00:08:08] so did you guys start with providers and then go to payers or was it the other way around?

[00:08:14] It was a little bit both.

[00:08:16] Oh, so it was with both?

[00:08:17] Really from the onset, the origin of it is that when originally I started,

[00:08:23] I was initially very interested in the Medicaid market.

[00:08:27] And I was really looking at kind of Medicaid expansion and this idea that

[00:08:31] there were very few tools being built for providers in the Medicaid market.

[00:08:35] And I'd had an opportunity to work with a number of federally qualified

[00:08:39] health centers, FQHCs and other safety net type organizations.

[00:08:43] So I was very fixated on this idea of how could we create

[00:08:46] software to scale the great work that they do because there is so much

[00:08:52] resource constrained on those providers in particular.

[00:08:56] And I had coming from Epic, I've looked at a number of these organizations

[00:09:00] either want to buy Epic and not be able to afford it or perhaps buy it,

[00:09:06] but then really struggle to support and bear the cost of that system.

[00:09:11] And so it was very important to me that if we were going to do this,

[00:09:15] we did it in a way that was not going to put a lot of financial strain

[00:09:18] on these providers.

[00:09:19] I didn't want them up to pay for anything.

[00:09:21] And so the initial kind of focus was going to manage Medicaid

[00:09:25] and seeing if I could get them to cover the cost of putting software

[00:09:29] into the provider office to help them, the provider operate more efficiently.

[00:09:34] And the general thesis was if they can take better care of your members

[00:09:39] is everyone better off?

[00:09:41] And that evolves to what we do today.

[00:09:44] So it was in working with those managed Medicaid groups and understanding

[00:09:47] what were the specific use cases that they were very interested in paying for

[00:09:53] that also had a corresponding value to the provider.

[00:09:56] If we could automate that workflow way and by value, not just taking away work,

[00:10:01] which I think is important, but also driving revenue, which these groups need.

[00:10:06] And so that is really what formed the focus to go to market was

[00:10:10] what are these use cases that are ultimately valuable to both sides?

[00:10:14] And I think there's this narrative not undeserved that this is a payer versus

[00:10:19] provider kind of market and you can serve one, but you're really look at

[00:10:23] that as a very cold war mentality.

[00:10:26] As a community, as a group of people who are all consumers of health care

[00:10:29] and effectively we're all paying for health care one way or another.

[00:10:33] We should expect more and demand more.

[00:10:36] And there's certainly pockets of this happening, but our mindset is a

[00:10:41] in the cold war mentality and how do we work collaboratively together?

[00:10:45] And there's a way for both sides to benefit.

[00:10:48] I love that you can't know this.

[00:10:50] Yeah, you can't have a scenario where everyone benefits.

[00:10:52] So there's got to be a loser in the model and our kind of

[00:10:55] approaches to look at all of those different middlemen who are not

[00:10:59] adding sufficient value and figuring out how to make life a little

[00:11:03] more unpleasant for them to make life better for the payer and the provider.

[00:11:07] I love it.

[00:11:07] And then also quickly as patients and members.

[00:11:10] Yeah, no, good stuff, Dan.

[00:11:11] I appreciate that.

[00:11:13] And thanks for sharing the origin story there where it started.

[00:11:17] Are you guys still working with the FQHCs?

[00:11:20] We have a handful.

[00:11:21] I think we ended up finding constantly looking at how we can get back to it.

[00:11:26] I think where we ended up getting pulled pretty quickly was when you look

[00:11:29] into the payer landscape at least a couple of years ago.

[00:11:32] I think this is still the case, but it certainly was a couple of years ago.

[00:11:36] Risk adjustment is the program that gets a lot of the interest.

[00:11:42] And in many ways you can look at a lot of the investment going on in the market

[00:11:46] right now as either directly or indirectly tied to risk adjustment.

[00:11:49] So we got pulled into the risk adjustment world and risk adjustment

[00:11:53] is certainly relevant in the Medicaid market, but it's very relevant

[00:11:57] in the Medicare market commercial too.

[00:11:59] But so we ended up working with kind of types of insurers and provider groups,

[00:12:05] not just FQHCs, but they will always hold a special spot.

[00:12:10] For sure.

[00:12:11] Yeah, Dan, we'll really appreciate the backstory on how you guys started

[00:12:15] and the shift to risk mitigation.

[00:12:18] Talk to us a little bit about what you believe makes you guys unique in the

[00:12:22] market. What's different about you guys?

[00:12:23] The biggest thing is probably that while we are a software company,

[00:12:27] we don't talk like software people and we don't come at it from an IT focused lens.

[00:12:35] I think that in healthcare, we don't do enough to commingle what the business

[00:12:41] is trying to accomplish and value to the business with the fact that

[00:12:44] technology is incredibly necessary to support good operational practice.

[00:12:51] And usually we're talking about like, you sell the IT, do you sell to

[00:12:56] the business?

[00:12:57] My answer is more business, but we certainly need to work with both.

[00:13:01] This is ultimately going to be a project and a software that will

[00:13:05] fall within the IT landscape.

[00:13:06] And so when we're talking about how we compete, we're usually being

[00:13:10] bucketed with legacy services businesses because the way we talk

[00:13:16] about problems and the way we solve problems is encompassing of a complete

[00:13:19] end-to-end.

[00:13:21] But then we also get grouped in with the software because if you

[00:13:24] wanted to put a lot of time, energy and consulting energy into a

[00:13:30] software product to try to tune it to what you needed, you could also go that path.

[00:13:35] So we sit and straddle these two worlds.

[00:13:38] And I think a large part of that is my general point of view on healthcare

[00:13:42] is that very few problems worth solving are software or technical problems.

[00:13:47] This is ultimately an industry in a field that is all about human service

[00:13:52] and connecting with individuals and empathy and a whole bunch of terms

[00:13:56] that we don't think about as being software related terms.

[00:14:00] And I think that perspective has been taken and brought to the way

[00:14:04] we think about solving all these problems, which is a heavy dose of

[00:14:07] software and technology and a heavy dose of humility, service and trying

[00:14:12] to solve out the entire problem.

[00:14:13] And that, I think, creates something a little bit unique and novel.

[00:14:17] It's a large part of why I think we've been able to actually sit

[00:14:20] between the payer and the provider and not be a payer business or provider

[00:14:27] business.

[00:14:27] We really are thinking about both.

[00:14:29] And if you have to set some constraints in order to do that, and I think

[00:14:33] the way that we've defined our problem and our problem space and the

[00:14:36] approach we've taken has created something that's unique.

[00:14:39] Yeah, for sure.

[00:14:40] And yet it is interesting that you say that then because you're right.

[00:14:43] Like it's either one or the other.

[00:14:45] And a lot of the companies that we either work with as clients

[00:14:48] or have on the podcast, they either serve one or the other.

[00:14:52] And it's very rare that you serve both.

[00:14:55] Yeah, it's all about being an enigma, right?

[00:14:56] Hard to define.

[00:14:57] But I think the problems that are worse solving sit in the middle of a

[00:15:02] whole bunch of mark, whether it be between payer provider between IT and

[00:15:06] ops, we're trying to always find those places where the system is

[00:15:10] inefficient because of the friction between these different silos.

[00:15:14] The opportunity to make the system more efficient is to remove

[00:15:16] the friction that everyone else has ignored.

[00:15:19] And ultimately, we're all this question of who is a payer and who is a provider?

[00:15:24] I don't even know what that means anymore.

[00:15:26] Everyone wants to bear risk.

[00:15:28] Everyone needs to manage risk.

[00:15:30] And I think it is there's a much larger opportunity to be had by just

[00:15:34] saying, look, our objective is to be an infrastructure that makes the end

[00:15:39] to end workflow efficient.

[00:15:42] We know there are going to be multiple stakeholders along the way,

[00:15:45] multiple people who have different jobs to do.

[00:15:47] We're going to support all of you.

[00:15:49] We're not going to require that you all be under one company, one P and L,

[00:15:53] one align set of management, but we're going to allow you to have that

[00:15:57] efficiency.

[00:15:58] And I think that creates a very forward looking view on what our

[00:16:01] healthcare ecosystem is shaping up looks like today, but will continue to look like.

[00:16:06] Yeah, no, I appreciate that, Dan.

[00:16:08] And what happens?

[00:16:10] This is something I really love to ask transformative businesses

[00:16:14] like yours, what happens before and after?

[00:16:16] So talk to me about somebody comes to see you and things look a certain way.

[00:16:22] Then they get Moxie going.

[00:16:25] And now what do things look like?

[00:16:27] So there are not surprising a bunch of vantage points on that.

[00:16:31] So I'll start all the way from the payer side and I'll take

[00:16:35] to the provider in the back.

[00:16:37] So today what's happening is that the payer is running some kind of process.

[00:16:43] They're paying a claim.

[00:16:44] They're, they're trying to look at a population of people they covered.

[00:16:48] And ultimately they're running some analysis off of claims data and

[00:16:53] deciding that they need to go and look at a medical record.

[00:16:57] And so at that point systems all hit pause.

[00:17:01] Things are pending and they're effectively going and dropping into a

[00:17:05] manual process to try and go get a medical record.

[00:17:08] Maybe there's a person logging in because they have remote EHR access.

[00:17:11] That's rare, but does happen.

[00:17:13] Many times this is picking up a phone calling and asking for somebody to fax your record.

[00:17:19] And maybe they've got a call four or five, six, seven times to get that.

[00:17:23] So you've got now what's happening on the other side.

[00:17:26] Well, there's somebody over at a health system who's getting those four,

[00:17:29] five, six calls.

[00:17:30] And what's happening right now is the volume of those calls is increasing

[00:17:35] because there are so many new programs where a payer wants to go and look at data.

[00:17:41] And so the amount of volume of requests is skyrocketing.

[00:17:45] So what you're seeing is that health systems historically, I'm using health

[00:17:48] systems interchangeably, but really any provider organization has had this

[00:17:52] function, the release of information department is typically sits within their

[00:17:57] HIM department and they are responding to all these requests over the last

[00:18:04] a couple of decades.

[00:18:05] This has just been a slow and steady increase of volume.

[00:18:08] And many organizations have decided we're just going to outsource that to some

[00:18:12] other vendor.

[00:18:13] And so either they're outsourced or they're managing it themselves, but either

[00:18:16] way, there's a lot of people involved in the process.

[00:18:19] So that's the current state.

[00:18:20] When we come in, basically 100% of that is eliminated.

[00:18:24] So when the payer decides that a medical record is required, which can be

[00:18:28] triggered by a person or by just a system process, they make a call

[00:18:33] into our software and then our software is determining whether or not

[00:18:38] that request is allowed to get a response.

[00:18:41] And so this is now looking at what are all the reasons why a provider

[00:18:44] would or would not permit electronic access to that information?

[00:18:49] And it can be a very nuanced set of rules, but effectively we're evaluating

[00:18:53] the request just like that person would have done.

[00:18:56] And then we're connecting into the core provider systems and automatically

[00:19:00] responding with the subset of the information that the payer needs.

[00:19:04] And so usually when a provider organization flips on this software, it

[00:19:08] is literally just work disappears.

[00:19:11] One day to that's beautiful.

[00:19:12] And yeah, no, there's no user interface for most of them.

[00:19:16] And then from the provider point of view or I'm sorry, from the plan

[00:19:20] point of view, a lot of things just speed up because now the data

[00:19:25] that they're looking for that penned in the process they have is

[00:19:29] pending for like seconds and now the data they need to continue

[00:19:32] is put into their system.

[00:19:33] And so you're getting a much faster cycling.

[00:19:37] What that looks like in the real world, in many cases,

[00:19:40] denials go down, payments accelerate where providers are bearing risk.

[00:19:47] They are the amount of energy going into reporting and justifying

[00:19:51] the conditions that they're managing that kind of disappears.

[00:19:55] So you have a compliance lift, you have a revenue kind of impact.

[00:19:59] You have a speed to revenue impact all because you're now sharing the data

[00:20:04] required much more quickly and with very little kind of ongoing work.

[00:20:11] We have a couple of other tools, but they all follow that lens.

[00:20:14] We're really looking at how do you just evaporate and ultimately

[00:20:18] do it in a way that benefits everyone involved.

[00:20:20] That's awesome, Dan question.

[00:20:22] Just really appreciate the way you laid that out.

[00:20:24] It made a lot of sense.

[00:20:26] Just automating the entire process, creating the data pipes and approval layers

[00:20:32] to make everything seamless.

[00:20:34] So does do both sides have to have the software?

[00:20:37] What if a provider decides to do it this way and a payer doesn't have it?

[00:20:42] Talk to us about that.

[00:20:43] How would it work in that instance?

[00:20:45] Yeah.

[00:20:46] So you didn't know this.

[00:20:47] That's a great tee up.

[00:20:48] We actually have rolled out a new kind of version of the software this year,

[00:20:52] which were early kind of handful of clients are using and we're going to be

[00:20:57] focused on pretty, pretty as aggressively as the right word.

[00:21:02] But it's in direct response to that topic.

[00:21:04] So we had these providers saying this is wonderful.

[00:21:08] All this work goes away, but we have all these requests we're still getting

[00:21:12] from plans that you don't work with yet.

[00:21:15] And so we've extended the software where there now is a user experience

[00:21:19] that HIM department can use where effectively when these requests come

[00:21:23] in via different channels is to wreck them into the software.

[00:21:27] And then again, it drops into this automation and then delivery.

[00:21:31] And so it is a, it continues to be not quite a total evaporation of effort,

[00:21:36] but you're effectively talking about uploading a request into the software

[00:21:40] and then processing what we've done even more recently is recognizing

[00:21:44] that there is still some work to upload the files.

[00:21:47] Is we've now actually rolled out a service to do all that for the health system.

[00:21:52] So now for these health systems and provider groups who say, I don't even

[00:21:56] have anyone to manage the release of information process at all, or I want

[00:21:59] to fully take it away.

[00:22:00] We actually now have a team who will do all that for you leveraging the software.

[00:22:05] So we're able to provide a much different experience, a much more modern

[00:22:09] kind of forward looking approach to ROI than is typical in the industry.

[00:22:15] But that's our solution then to help a provider organization automate

[00:22:19] with all health plans and even beyond health plans.

[00:22:22] So this next version of the software that we're putting out now also connects

[00:22:25] you into their requests coming from lawyers and life insurance and the

[00:22:29] federal government, and we can manage all that as well for you.

[00:22:33] And then for the payers, there is no need for them to work with us

[00:22:37] because when we then send them this data from the provider, if they're

[00:22:40] not set up with the software, they don't get it.

[00:22:43] If you're using the software, you can pick your formats.

[00:22:45] You can directly route it into whatever other tools you're using.

[00:22:49] There's a lot of benefit to using the software in terms of getting

[00:22:53] the data in an optimized format for you.

[00:22:56] If you're not doing that, we still give you the documentation

[00:23:01] effectively as a very clean PDF document, which is an improvement

[00:23:06] to how they're typically getting it today.

[00:23:08] That's just a small baby step improvement.

[00:23:10] So we can then, because it's a PDF, everyone in these health plans

[00:23:15] has an infrastructure for absorbing a PDF and then putting it into their

[00:23:19] infrastructure because that's what they're set up to do today.

[00:23:22] The benefit is that plans can get up and running with effectively no IT

[00:23:26] lift because you're just talking about approving one more group

[00:23:30] to deposit a folder or file to you.

[00:23:34] And so we've tried to really make it as simple as possible for both

[00:23:37] sides to begin participating, but then increase their investment in time

[00:23:43] and energy as they're receiving value.

[00:23:45] So you almost use the return on investment from your initial efforts

[00:23:50] to justify continuing to invest in improving the connection with us,

[00:23:54] which then compounds in value.

[00:23:56] I think there's too many solutions out there where it's a do a ton

[00:24:01] of work up front for questionable value.

[00:24:04] We've tried to take a very different approach of until you see the value,

[00:24:08] we're going to keep your investment very small.

[00:24:10] And then as you get value, we'll grow with you and we'll take the risk

[00:24:15] that we can continue to supply more benefit to you tomorrow

[00:24:18] and strengthen that relationship.

[00:24:19] And so our version of going at risk is just to earn your business

[00:24:24] every day by adding more value than we did yesterday and use that

[00:24:28] to strengthen and build a relationship over time.

[00:24:30] Yeah, Dan, thank you.

[00:24:31] Sounds like a great partnership model built into a very attractive tech stack.

[00:24:36] So I really appreciate you walking us through that.

[00:24:37] I always love the pre and post because it really helps you understand

[00:24:40] the value being delivered.

[00:24:42] And you did just such a beautiful job of explaining that.

[00:24:44] Oh, well, I appreciate it.

[00:24:45] Yeah, there's way too many things that coming from him's and a couple

[00:24:49] other shows, right?

[00:24:50] You walk the room and you're like, I don't have any idea what you

[00:24:52] actually do.

[00:24:53] Thanks for forcing us to explain it in real time.

[00:24:56] Absolutely.

[00:24:57] Absolutely.

[00:24:58] And folks, as you're listening to this episode, you got to be thinking,

[00:25:01] where do I sit in this picture?

[00:25:03] And what am I doing?

[00:25:04] What is my organization doing?

[00:25:05] If you're a payer or provider, this is a difference maker.

[00:25:09] And today we need partners like Dan and his team at Moxie to help

[00:25:14] make that lift a lot lighter.

[00:25:16] Staffing continues to be an issue.

[00:25:18] We need to find ways to take cost out of the system.

[00:25:21] So definitely some pearls here being laid by Dan.

[00:25:25] Dan, look, we're here at the end.

[00:25:27] So I'd love to just ask you to leave our listeners with a call to

[00:25:31] action and then if something resonated with them today, what's the best

[00:25:35] place they could get in touch with you and the Moxie team?

[00:25:38] Sure.

[00:25:38] I would say call to action is focus on how we're going to make

[00:25:42] this system more affordable.

[00:25:44] There is no silver bullet to that problem.

[00:25:46] And at the end of the day, we need a lot of people lined up with

[00:25:51] that as a North Star.

[00:25:52] And I think we spent a lot of time as an industry talking about triple

[00:25:56] quadruple aim and this kind of magical idea that we can be both lower

[00:26:01] cost, higher quality and more accessible and more user friendly.

[00:26:05] And I think we need to work on all of those things.

[00:26:09] Those are all very ambitious in their own right, let alone kind of one

[00:26:14] effort solving all of it.

[00:26:16] And so my call would be, let's make affordability kind of the top of

[00:26:22] the pyramid.

[00:26:23] And I think that absent an affordable healthcare system, we don't

[00:26:26] have an equitable health system.

[00:26:28] We don't have an accessible health system.

[00:26:30] And I don't have a lot of concern that the wealthy in the country will

[00:26:33] be able to afford health care.

[00:26:34] We are going to continue to have that option, that right.

[00:26:37] And I'm much more worried that as we continue to have costs that

[00:26:43] are arising, that we will have to make some very hard tradeoffs

[00:26:47] around who gets what.

[00:26:49] I'd like to see us avoid that outcome by focusing now on anything we

[00:26:54] can do to ring out cost.

[00:26:55] Anyone has ideas on that?

[00:26:57] I'm always down to spitball and think creatively about things

[00:27:02] not directly related to what we do.

[00:27:04] I love talking about this stuff and anyone with a fun idea on taking

[00:27:08] costs out of system, I'm supportive of.

[00:27:11] And so in terms of how to get in touch, I'm not very good at

[00:27:14] this stuff like the socials are not where I live and die, but I

[00:27:18] do generally monitor LinkedIn's LinkedIn messages are probably

[00:27:20] pretty good Avenue and certainly email.

[00:27:24] Yeah, I try my best to get back to happy to be in touch with anyone.

[00:27:27] Amazing.

[00:27:28] Hey, Dan, really appreciate that folks will leave ways to get

[00:27:31] in touch with Dan and Moxie health in the show notes.

[00:27:34] So definitely make sure you take action on anything that may have

[00:27:39] struck a chord with you or maybe made you a little uncomfortable.

[00:27:42] If we did make you a little uncomfortable, that's probably good.

[00:27:45] It's probably good.

[00:27:45] That means we got to do something about it.

[00:27:47] That were you going to say something that.

[00:27:49] No, we should all be uncomfortable.

[00:27:52] What a ridiculous set of issues we're all dealing with.

[00:27:55] And if you can wake up every day and say that it was a normal day

[00:27:59] and everything makes sense, then I don't tell me where you're

[00:28:03] working in healthcare because it's crazy.

[00:28:05] And so I think we need to, if you're going to do this, you

[00:28:07] got to be comfortable with the uncertainty and the being

[00:28:10] uncomfortable.

[00:28:11] And we ultimately need to work to change the system and

[00:28:14] change its heart and scary and all those things and yeah,

[00:28:17] embrace discomfort.

[00:28:18] Love it.

[00:28:18] Great close, Dan, really appreciate it.

[00:28:20] And folks, thanks for listening to and watching our interview

[00:28:24] today with Dan Wilson from Moxie health tune in next time.

[00:28:28] And Dan, thanks for being with us.

[00:28:29] I appreciate it.

[00:28:29] So